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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:27 am 
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Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 12:15 am
Posts: 341
Location: Netherlands
Maybe this should be under the Video topic, maybe not.
So I have been working hard these days getting my 8mm projector converted into something usefull to connect to my O2 video port.
The idea is to capture a whole range of single frames but offcourse the individual frames need to be numbered sequentially (so they can be processed with another tool afterwards). Each time the mouse button is pressed, a frame needs to be captured.
The mouse button is connected to an automated frame 'trigger'of the projector that is why.

Now here is my question:
How can I record single frames with my O2 using a mouse based (GUI) tool?

I don't think this is possible with the standard capture tool right?
Is there anything else available like freeware?
Is it difficult to write such application, I think dmedia contains some examples?

Please let me know if you have an idea or want to help.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:06 am 
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Location: London
You probably don't want to do 'stop-motion' filming with an 8mm projector - you'll fade or overheat the film quickly.
A better solution is to modify the projector to run at 25fps. From memory Tobin Cinema Systems does such a kit. You can then film with DV camera or similar.

I know this doesn't help if you don't have a DV camera, or you need higher res frames. 8mm only carries so much detail, most of the picture is grain anyhow, unless you want to do some processing to decrease grain and increase detail.

But trust me, don't stop the projector with the douser open.

Or you could scan the 8mm on a telecine or proper film scanner.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:25 pm 
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if you just wanna grab a series of frames by hand try mediarecorder. every time you hit record the new frame is numbered in line.

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 Post subject: Film Critic
Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:58 pm 
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Location: Brisbane Australia
Where is Diego, Film is his Forte' :)

You almost need to modify one of those old super 8 film editors/viewers. The ones that had the handwind cranks & build in screens. They used a lower powered lamp & would be perfect as you would not toast your celluloid.

Some of the new 1 & 3 watt LEDs would make a great replacement source, Higher colour temperature & they run cool. I have seen the 3watt sources (1 single LED) housed in a par 16 lamp base. (Par 16's are the same size as the dichroic lamps/reflectors in almost all 8 & 16mm projectors. I am not sure how many projectors run 12v ? (http://zyoe.en.alibaba.com/product/50135619/51184852/LED_lamp_MR16_GU10_PAR_16_20_38_Series/LED_Lamp__MR16_.html)
Maybe email them for a sample?

The only issue with doing it by a hand crank would be frame registration. Where is a "Live" Onion skin option for capture *Nudge* Maybe if we ask Diego nicely he could write a plug in for RT :idea:

*Cracks the Whip* NOW what is happening with that, My O2+ is still waiting for a useful existence or I am threatening it with retirement :twisted:

Timberoz>Craig


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 Post subject: Re: Film Critic
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:59 am 
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Location: Rosario / Santa Fe / República Argentina
Timberoz wrote:
Where is Diego, Film is his Forte' :)


I don't know if you mean this Diego, but I'll try to do the best anyway! ;)

Timberoz wrote:
You almost need to modify one of those old super 8 film editors/viewers. The ones that had the handwind cranks & build in screens. They used a lower powered lamp & would be perfect as you would not toast your celluloid.


Not really. The Francois's approach is right, it is just that he need to remove the lamp from their original place, to re-allocate it strategically.

To Francois: you must search on eBay for a dichroical mirror to be able to filter the infra-red spectrum from your lamp. The mirror must be mounted at 45ª of the normal of your film-gate, to be able to place the lamp at 90ª of the film-gate. The infra-red spectrum will pass through the mirror but will not be reflected, and you'll be able to do stop-motion without any risks.
You'll need a real nice dichroical mirror, as in example a spare from a Durst photographic magnifier. That's your second best choice, now, what is the first best choice? :)

Timberoz wrote:
Some of the new 1 & 3 watt LEDs would make a great replacement source, Higher colour temperature & they run cool. I have seen the 3watt sources (1 single LED) housed in a par 16 lamp base. (Par 16's are the same size as the dichroic lamps/reflectors in almost all 8 & 16mm projectors. I am not sure how many projectors run 12v ? (http://zyoe.en.alibaba.com/product/50135619/51184852/LED_lamp_MR16_GU10_PAR_16_20_38_Series/LED_Lamp__MR16_.html)
Maybe email them for a sample?


That's the first best choice; a lot better than lamp re-allocation. Just replace the dichroic reflector by a LED pack and you'll be done! ...but don't use any kind of editor/viewer/moviola... those are low precission mechanisms, and their fresnel crystals are pretty bad compared to a projector assembly.

About projector assemblies, you have two main ways, between a few others:

1) Direct Coupling
2) Mirror/Condenser Coupling

....I think you know of what I'm talking about: the first choice is a specially adapted lens to couple your camera directly to the film-gate; and the second one uses the stock lens for your projector and camera but the image is projected over a mirror (plated on their primary surface) which is at 45ª of the lens normal, then you have a condenser lens at 90ª of the projection lens, on which you'll point your camera.

Both are very good solutions, by far better than any editor/viewer/moviola device, and capable of about two times better resolution. I mean, if you uses good lenses (Angenieux, Zeiss, etc.) and a careful assembly, you can grab images up to 2048X2048 pixels with great detail. But on any case, you can grab images of about 1024x1024 pixels without problems.

Timberoz wrote:
The only issue with doing it by a hand crank would be frame registration.


Forget hand crank! :) ...That's a real pain, and will not work as expected. You could go better projecting the reel at real-time on a translucid paper of about 1 meter x 1 meter, and grabbing it with a DV camera, even if the projection speed is uncorrected! :) ...There are ways to fix the periodical fade of an uncorrected projector mechanism (24fps), but there is no way to obtain more resolution from a viewer screen!

Timberoz wrote:
Where is a "Live" Onion skin option for capture *Nudge* Maybe if we ask Diego nicely he could write a plug in for RT :idea:

*Cracks the Whip* NOW what is happening with that, My O2+ is still waiting for a useful existence or I am threatening it with retirement :twisted:

Timberoz>Craig


I really hope to be able to do it this year; that should be a real great thing for me as programmer and hobbyist, since at some point I was really interested to join both fields, even if it also means the custom design/programming of some parallel port device to control a given step-motor mechanism. As always, time and money is a tiranic force... but who knows... I hope this year finances will go better, and then I'll be able to program again. That's my real wish!

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:27 am 
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Hi All,

First I would like to wish you all the best for 2007!

Thanks for pointing me to mediarecorder, after some research it is really simple to record frames ;)

I already use a modified light source on the projector.
But from others I understand that LED light is not so great wrt the real colors. I still think that frame by frame capturing will give the best results and finest editing possibilities as I can work with uncompressed images.


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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 10:34 pm 
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Location: Brisbane Australia
Quote:
I don't know if you mean this Diego


You Betcha :)

Timberoz>Craig


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 Post subject: Home Made TeleCine
Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:05 am 
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Location: Rosario / Santa Fe / República Argentina
loonvf wrote:
Hi All,

First I would like to wish you all the best for 2007!


Hello Francois; same wishes for you and yours from Argentine! ;)

loonvf wrote:
Thanks for pointing me to mediarecorder, after some research it is really simple to record frames ;)


Heheh, I missed the whole point from your post, about which software to use! Thanks to GOD some people was enough awaken to give you a reply! ;)

loonvf wrote:
I already use a modified light source on the projector.


That's just cool, glad to see that you have anticipated this fact! ;)


loonvf wrote:
But from others I understand that LED light is not so great wrt the real colors.


They need some color correction to bring the best results, but their light is enough good to render very high quality images. Two good tips to explore are the use of a thin fresnel glass and a Skylight filter at the front of the LED pack to get both effects of color correction and light difusion. I swear you'll not regret this little upgrade! ;)

Of course, you could arrange some nice multicolor arrays to servocontrol them by mean of your parallel port and some DAC circuitry... and your project should be close to some state-of-art DaVinci station! But that's another kind of project! ;)

loonvf wrote:
I still think that frame by frame capturing will give the best results and finest editing possibilities as I can work with uncompressed images.


Of course, that's why I've recommended you to avoid the moviola based solution and I've only recommended as third solution the real-time playback of film with a DV camera for capture! :)

Timberoz wrote:
You Betcha :)


:lol: How goes the life on the australian side of things? I hope well!, glad to see that you have present to this argentinean guy! Best wishes for 2007! ;)

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Unread postPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:30 am 
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loonvf wrote:
Thanks for pointing me to mediarecorder, after some research it is really simple to record frames ;)


yup that's the way to do it. i made a little stop animation film with my kids like that too. in fact.... i should do it again. would keep them from fighting.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:49 am 
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Location: california
Here's a couple of interesting links:

http://www.moviestuff.tv/8mm_telecine.html
http://jiminger.com/s8/


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 Post subject: FilmShooting.Com
Unread postPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:47 pm 
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dj wrote:


Yeap, I think all we know those. Anyway, if you want a definitive reference for small film formats, you should check:

FilmShooting.Com

There you can frequently find to Roger Evans (the guy from MovieStuff), who is always prompt to reply questions about TeleCine, among other interesting characters of the small film scene.

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 Post subject:
Unread postPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:35 am 
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If you're in the Netherlands, and want to transfer 8mm (or 16, 32 ...) film to a digital medium (harddisk, mini DV, betacam SP, ...), I can recommend SuperSens in Amsterdam. http://www.supersens.nl

They offer a range of conversion options, one of which involves running the film though a scanner like device that actually scans it frame by frame and then re-assembles a movie from it. They are very professional, and you won't get a flickery "captured with a videocamera from a projection screen" type of conversion. You pay a premium for the best conversion, whether that's worth it is up to you,

Hope this helps

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