Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

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mia
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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby mia » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:55 pm

pretty big step up from the indy.
Nice box (so is the indy).

I used my Fuel as a desktop for many years, mostly for email + mathematica; and, occasionally to watch movies; a really nice workstation, without a doubt, very capable, even today.
:Onyx2:

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby hamei » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:00 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:Yes, there are two meeses.

Somewhere on Techpubs it explains the USB and firewire addressing. The extra digit

Code: Select all

pci/5/usb/2/3/mo

vs

Code: Select all

pci/5/usb/2/4/1/mouse

is because the hub (or kvm ?) adds an extra addressing step.

the kvm thing is a pita :D
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:52 pm

@mia, yes, compared to the Indy it flies! Especially those V12 graphics. My folks were visiting and my father was captivated by the demos. He particularly enjoyed the "demograph."

@hamei, no, I figured that's what it meant. But why is it detecting *two* mice? That's why I think there's something afoot with the KVM's mouse emulation feature. Perhaps Irix is seeing both the emulated mouse and the actual HID mouse device on the hub. The real question is whether that's confusing it, or the "lose mouse on logout" issue is something different. Maybe this gets better with later releases of Irix.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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mia
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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby mia » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:08 pm

@ClassicHasClass: Funny, I never really use the graphical capabilities of my Fuel, mostly MIPSpro and Mathematica, I had a V12 octane before that, so I've never really seen a big change, nevertheless, it's still a very capable box, are you going to move it to gigE?
:Onyx2:

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby hamei » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:45 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:Maybe this gets better with later releases of Irix.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. Firewire made a huge jump at about 27 or so, but the usb got to where it would mostly do a mouse and keyboard, then stayed there.
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby recondas » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:27 am

ClassicHasClass wrote: there are two meeses. 2/3/mouse appears to be the one actually in use; if I remove it, the mouse is not detected. However, even if I remove 2/4/1/mouse, it just comes back. I might need to fiddle with the KVM's mouse emulation to figure out why that is. In general the KVM just works (it still emits usb_hid_reattach errors to the console when I switch away, but unlike the Command Monitor, it redetects it fine when I switch back), *except* in this one case: if I log out as any user other than root. Then the mouse stops working and I have to restart the system. The keyboard works fine, but the mouse stops functioning. However, switching focus is fine, and it doesn't seem to happen if I log out if I was logged in as root. I wonder if there's a permissions problem somewhere, and I don't know if it has anything to do with "the two meeses."
Think it could be realted to the Aten KVM being set in USB Hub emulation mode?

When the Fuel was connected to the iogear model 1764 KVM (which doesn't offer USB hub emulation) I never experienced extraneous mice entries in ioconfig or usb_hid reattach errors.

Don't currently have a Fuel set up to allow additional testing, but do have a Tezro and Onyx350 sharing dual monitors and a USB keyboard and mouse via a Gefen 2x2 DVI DL Switcher/KVM. The The Tezro and O350 are same IP35 hardware family as the Fuel; all three share the similarity of having PS/2 and USB ports. The Gefen 2x2 KVM also doesn't offer USB hub emulation, and there there haven't been any usb_hid reattach errors or extraneous mice with either the Tezro or Onyx 350:

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3 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/11/pci-x/0/1a/scsi_ctlr/0
4 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/11/pci-x/0/1b/scsi_ctlr/0
5 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/11/pci-x/1/2a/scsi_ctlr/0
6 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/11/pci-x/1/2b/scsi_ctlr/0
3 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/0/1/tty/1
4 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/0/1/tty/2
1 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/0/2/ppb_16/2/mad_subsys
7 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/1/2/ohci/0/scsi_ctlr/0
0 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/1/3a/usb/3/1/mouse
0 /hw/module/001c01/IXbrick/xtalk/15/pci-x/1/3a/usb/3/3/keyboard
Could (or have) you tried the Aten KVM without USB Hub emulation enabled?
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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:57 am

I'll try that after I upgrade it. I don't remember if it's turned on or not.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby mapesdhs » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:21 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:The Fuel is (finally) set up with 6.5.20. ...


Quick note - if you want to minimise noise, I strongly recommend the Fujistu MAS3367NC + adapter (or native NP 68pin). One of the quietest
drives I've tested so far, and also the 2nd fastest for access time (only beaten by the MAX3036NC, which makes fractionally more noise).

The MAS3367NC is easily the best disk for O2.

Congrats on getting a Fuel! 8)

Ian.
I'm working on a charitable PC build for the Learn Engineering YouTube channel. Please PM/email/call if you'd like to contribute!
Donations of any kind of item I can sell to provide funds are also most welcome.
mapesdhs@yahoo.com
+44 (0)7434 635 121

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:21 am

It's a Fujitsu something or other in there, but it's not very loud. (Then again it sits between an MDD G4 and a quad G5, two machines not noted for their silent operation, so I could be just ignorant. :lol: )

Up to 6.5.22 and after a bit of headscratching on apparently circular Nekoware dependencies, just threw them all together in a dist directory and let swmgr sort it out. Gonna get Firefox 3.0.19 working on it next. I still need to fiddle with the mouse emulation on the KVM.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:31 pm

The mouse emulation issue suddenly isn't a problem anymore. Maybe 6.5.22 fixed it? Maybe I had some gnarly weed?

My RAM still hasn't arrived, but the M-Audio 7.1 card did, so I stuck it in one of the 33MHz slots and it works nicely (scaring the cat playing DOOM at top volume). The FireWire card arrived as well, but the Fuel hardware aggregator says it has to be the red board Adaptec and this one is green, but it's OHCI so shouldn't it just work? Is there any point at all to FW if you're not running 6.5.27? I haven't bothered to install it yet.

Hopefully the RAM gets here this weekend (2GB).
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby hamei » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:40 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:The FireWire card arrived as well, but the Fuel hardware aggregator says it has to be the red board Adaptec and this one is green, but it's OHCI so shouldn't it just work? Is there any point at all to FW if you're not running 6.5.27? I haven't bothered to install it yet.

I have a blue Adaptec that works ... and a red no-name that works, too. The important thing appears to be the chip - *must* be a TI. Maybe the green Adaptecs used the NEC chip ?

Firewire did work before 6.5.27 - Neko got an external hard disk to run, other people did as well, but it was not easy. If you look back on nekochan there are threads with hinv outputs, conflicting firewire device outputs (I forget which applet one runs to check the firewire bus), lots of helpful advice on mounting a disk, &c &c.

Post-27, it was simple. Probably more robust as well but I did not have any failures with it at 25 or so. (Sorry, can't remember exactly which level.)

I found the firewire very useful at the time for standalone but if you have other means of backup and network storage, and now that SATA is available, it's not such a big deal ... I use firewire now for reading memory cards. It's great for that, even faster than USB on Windows, but in your case, with 600 computers in the room, maybe not such a big selling point ?

As far as I know, no one ever made the 'supported' video input work. Neko got it to display a single frame upside-down once and that's about it. There's a project for your spare time :D

Eventually, you are going to want to go to 30. It is better, just do it carefully so you don't lose the good stuff.

Oh. If you do play with firewire, beware. Do not try hot-plugging, unplugging. You can get away with it about once out of every three tries. The other two times it will crash the computer, guaranteed. They never got that to work right.
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:54 am

I'm used to FireWire on my Power Macs where I can sling hard disks, system backups over HD Target Mode, DV/HDV and webcams, so fighting with non-hotpluggable iffy mass storage and no video doesn't sound too gratifying. :| That said, I might as well install it and see if it's recognized, since all of my Macs that need it either have a PCI card already or built-in FW. The card doesn't need drivers for Mac OS, so I'm sure it would work in Irix.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby hamei » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:37 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:I'm used to FireWire on my Power Macs where I can sling hard disks, system backups over HD Target Mode, DV/HDV and webcams, so fighting with non-hotpluggable iffy mass storage and no video doesn't sound too gratifying.

To be fair, the firewire hard disk never gave me any trouble whatsoever. It was mostly the initial figuring-out period that was shaky.

There is support in Irix for HFS (?) so it's perhaps possible to use an Apple-formatted disk via firewire ? That might be interesting to play with for youse Apple guys.

Sata is so much easier to deal with that interest in firewire disks disappeared when we discovered the LSI adapter cards. But it might still be useful to you.

People were succesful with firewire CD-ROMS as well. And I still use mine for reading CF and SD cards. No one tried a DVD-Writer, as far as I know. CDRTools works with a scsi-ide adapter to write dvd's, so maybe the firewire would also. I tried a SATA DVD-writer without success, but that was quite a while ago. Things may have improved there.

The part you might like to experiment with is the video. Supposedly Irix supports IIDC video input through firewire. The Apple firewire webcam does not work. I got a Texas Instruments firewire webcam that is seen but doesn't work. The Canopus ADVC cards are supposed to work, but I've never heard of anyone who made it happen. They should - they are "supported" after all, maybe a support contract with SGI would be worthwhile :)
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

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Re: Shortly to be the proud owner of a Fuel

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:20 am

Interesting. I have two IIDC cams here, an iSight (which I believe makes Irix crash, according to the aggregator), and an Orange Micro iBOT. The iBOT is different enough that I might give it a shot. That RAM better arrive today.

I have a Canopus ADVC-300 here too. Is that what you mean by "card"? It's an external FireWire device. I have ADS Pyro A/Vs coming out my ears, but I see Neko tried and failed with those.

More importantly, do these all work with 6.5.22?

I also have a line on a 700MHz R16K card, but the seller wants a lot of money for an untested item and I'm kind of worried about putting it in my only Fuel.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Firewire Video support software

Unread postby recondas » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:38 pm

hamei wrote:The part you might like to experiment with is the video. Supposedly Irix supports IIDC video input through firewire. The Apple firewire webcam does not work. I got a Texas Instruments firewire webcam that is seen but doesn't work. The Canopus ADVC cards are supposed to work, but I've never heard of anyone who made it happen. They should - they are "supported" after all, maybe a support contract with SGI would be worthwhile :)
ClassicHasClass wrote:I have two IIDC cams here, an iSight (which I believe makes Irix crash, according to the aggregator), and an Orange Micro iBOT. The iBOT is different enough that I might give it a shot......I have a Canopus ADVC-300 here too. Is that what you mean by "card"? It's an external FireWire device. I have ADS Pyro A/Vs coming out my ears, but I see Neko tried and failed with those.

Firewire video won't use any of the classic IRIX video tools (e.g. Media Recorder and videod, et al) that you may have experienced on your Indy. Instead FW video use DM10 specific ML video libraries - which aren't included with a default install of the DM10 software package.

After you install the DM10 software package (see below for more on that subject), the DM10, IIDC and AV/C man pages will give you a better idea of which protocols are supported, the software tools provided, and some (basic) hints are to how they're used. Don't mean to bury you in tech notes, but they give the best clues as to what's need to get all the software bits you'll need to get FW video working. None of the DM10 related man pages are available through TechPubs, so I've quoted them here:

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% man dm10

dm10(7)                                                                dm10(7)

NAME
     dm10, - DMediapro(tm) DM10

DESCRIPTION
     The DMediapro(tm) DM10 product is a PCI-based IEEE-1394 (FireWire) option
     card for Silicon Graphics systems.

   Supported Systems
     The DMediapro(tm) DM10 is supported on the following systems:

     o Silicon Graphics Fuel
     o Silicon Graphics Tezro
     o Silicon Graphics O2
     o Silicon Graphics Octane/Octane2
     o Onyx 350 InfiniteReality
     o Onyx 350 InfinitePerformance
     o Onyx 4 UltimateVision

   Supported Protocols
     The DMediapro(tm) DM10 supports the following protocols:

     o libfw (userspace FireWire interface library)
     o IIDC
     o AV/C
     o SBP2

   Supported Devices
     While any device compliant with the above protocols should work, the
     DMediapro(tm) DM10 has been tested by SGI with the following devices:

     IIDC
          o Kritter Digital Camera
          o PointGrey Firefly2

     AV/C
          o Canopus ADVC-100

     SBP2
          o LaCie D2
          o Maxtor OneTouch
          o Enclosures using Oxford 911 Chipsets
          o Enclosures using Oxford 912 Chipsets (with 9p to 6p cable)

NOTES
     The IIDC and AV/C protocols requires that the ML software subsystems be
     installed for proper operation.

     See the DM10 libfw manpage for libfw programming information.

     See the DM10 IIDC manpage for DM control parameters.

     See the DM10 AV/C manpage for DM control parameters.

     See the dksc manpage for SBP2 mount points.

FILES
     /usr/share/src/dmedia/firewire/*
          Example source code for programming libfw.

     /usr/share/src/dmedia/video/iidc/*
          Example source code for programming IIDC.

     /usr/share/src/dmedia/video/avc/*
          Example source code for programming AV/C.

SEE ALSO
     DMediaPro DM10 Release Notes, fwprobe(1)

Code: Select all

% man IIDC

iidc(7)                                                                iidc(7)

NAME
     iidc - DMediapro(tm) DM10 IIDC Protocol

DESCRIPTION
     The DMediapro(tm) DM10 IIDC Protocol is a method for controlling and
     transferring data from IIDC video devices.

     This protocol allows real-time input of a wide array of video formats.

     The DM10 IIDC Video Protocol Option requires that the ML software
     subsystems be installed for proper operation.

   Supported Video Formats
     The IIDC Protocol supports video formats defined by the 1394 Trade
     Organization. These formats include support for:

     o 160x120, 320x240, 640x480, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x960, and 1600x1200
     video formats

     o 1.875, 3.75, 7.5, 15, 30, and 60 Hz vertical rates

     o 4 x 3 aspect ratio

   Supported Video Component Sampling
     4:1:1, 4:2:2, and 4:4:4 modes are supported.

   Color Representations
     The IIDC Protocol uses three components with eight bits of precision at
     all steps of its internal pipeline.

   Control Parameters
     IIDC specific control parameters are identified in ml_iidc.h which is
     included with the IIDC subsystem.  Other controls can be found through
     standard ML methods, or by using mlquery as:

     mlquery -d <iidc device> -v all

FILES
     /usr/share/src/dmedia/video/iidc/*
          Example source code for programming IIDC.

SEE ALSO
     DMediaPro DM10 Release Notes

Code: Select all

% man AVC                                                       

avc(7)                                                                  avc(7)

NAME
     avc - DMediapro(tm) DM10 AV/C Protocol

DESCRIPTION
     The DMediapro(tm) DM10 AV/C Protocol is a method for controlling and
     transferring data to and from AV/C video devices.

     This protocol allows real-time output and input to and from of a wide
     array of video formats.

     The DM10 AV/C Video Protocol Option requires that the ML software
     subsystems be installed for proper operation.

   Supported Video Formats
     The AV/C Protocol supports video formats defined by the 1394 Trade
     Organization. These formats include support for:

     o (NTSC) 720x480 @ 30fps, (PAL) 720 x 576 @ 25fps video formats

     o DVC and DVCPRO Compression

     o Audio support for 48kHz (16-bit) or 32KHz (12-bit)

   Supported Video Component Sampling
     4:1:1 mode (DVC standard) is supported.

   Color Representations
     The AV/C Protocol uses three components with eight bits of precision at
     all steps of its internal pipeline.

   Control Parameters
     AV/C specific control parameters are identified in ml_avc.h which is
     included with the AV/C subsystem.  Other controls can be found through
     standard ML methods, or by using mlquery as:

     mlquery -d <avc device> -v all

FILES
     /usr/share/src/dmedia/video/avc/*
          Example source code for programming AV/C.

SEE ALSO
     DMediaPro DM10 Release Notes

As mentioned earlier, if you do a "Default Installation" of the DM10 software package, you *won't* get the IIDC and AV/C software. To get around that select the "Custom Installation ..." tab, open the drop arrows next each of the DM10 selections and manually select ALL of the subsystems, including/especially the DM10 Dev stuff.
DM10_Install.jpg
That sould give you the IIDC and AV/C source code samples nekonoko mentioned using (read down starting here). The acv_vidtogfx or iidc_vidtogfx executables sound like a reasonable place to start testing your FW cameras. To do much more than that, or take advantage of the avc_vidtomemory/iidc_vidtomemory program stubs you'll likely have to code your own app.
fw_video_source_code.jpg

ClassicHasClass wrote:More importantly, do these all work with 6.5.22?
There weren't any release notes included with the DM10 1.1 package, but the release notes for the previous version (DM10 1.0.1) mention:

Code: Select all

       2.2  Prerequisites

          o The DM10 1.0.1 system software requires Irix 6.5.21 or
            greater.

          o On Irix 6.5.21, patchSG0005442 is required and it is
            also recommended to use patchSG0005243 and
            patchSG0005226.

          o On Irix 6.5.22, patchSG0005442 is required and it is
            also recommended to use patchSG0005409.

          o On Irix 6.5.23, no patches are required.
There are some notes on installing the DM10 software in this post.

If you have the chance to try it out please let us know what you discover.
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* InfiniteReality/Reality Software, IRIX 6.5 Release *
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