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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9298
astouffer wrote:
You guys are gonna make me buy a fuel now to solve this problem ;)

I'm pretty sure we could arrange something ... :P


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 531
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
I haven't given up on this. I did however break my hand which slows down most things. I've decided to try and convert an ATX PSU while trying to get the original fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:42 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:40 pm
Posts: 220
Location: Oslo, Norway
Ouch! Not good. Get well soon!

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 531
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Some progress!!

I bought a decent ATX PSU and extensions for the 24 pin P2 and 8 pin P3 motherboard connectors this way I could easily move the pins around and add FAN signals to P2. I hooked things up in a mess of wires on my machine room floor. First gave power to the PSU with just my adapter to see that there were no shorts. Next I connected P2 to my Fuel, this way the 5V stand by power is available and I can try to communicate with the L1 port.

Hooking up my terminal and trying different baud rates I only get garbage. But very consistent garbage, hmmmm. I get a bit confident and try to power the beast up, nothing but more garbage on the terminal. I get more confident and hook up P3 (8 pin 12 V supply) and press power again. Now I get a beep, slow spinning fans and a red light that turns into a steady white blinking and more garbage on L1.

No bad! about here I figure out that the baud rate should be 38400 which my old vt320 can't handle. Time for an upgrade :) I now hook up my laptop and connect with the correct baud rate and voila! L1!

Code:
pontus@knd:~$ cu -s 38400 -l ttyUSB0
Connected.

ERROR: command not found.
001a01-L1>
001a01-L1>help
Commands are:
*                  autopower|apwr     junkbus|jb|bedrock brick             
partdb             cpu                nia|ni|ctc         nib               
iia|ii|cti         iib                config|cfg         debug             
display|dsp        env                fan                help|hlp           
history|hist       l1dbg              link               log               
ioport|ioprt       istat              l1                 leds               
margin|mgn         network            pimm               port|prt           
power|pwr          reset|rst          nmi                softreset|softrst 
select|sel         serial             eeprom             uart               
usb                verbose            router|rtr         date               
nvram              security           nextgen            flash             
reboot_l1          version|ver        pbay               test|tst           
scan               pci               
enter 'hlp <cmd>' for more help on a single command.
001a01-L1>


This is where I'm at. I'm going to play some more with this now.

And thanks for you're concern tingo :) but don't worry, I'll be able to get you the ND-110 safely to you anyway :D

_________________
:Onyx2R: :IRIS3130: :Onyx2: :O2000: :O200: :PI: :Fuel: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2: :Indy: :1600SW: :pdp8e:
:BA213: <- MicroVAX 3500 :BA213: <- DECsystem 5500 :BA215: <- MicroVAX 3300
Pictures of my collection: www.pdp8.se


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:12 pm 
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Posts: 5155
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Outstanding!!

Very nicely done Pontus - Fuel owners worldwide you you a debt of gratitude.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 531
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
And Success!!

I got these two warnings:
Code:
001a01 ATTN: 2.5V high warning limit reached  2.769V.
and
Code:
001a01 ATTN: FAN 5 warning limit reached @ 0 RPM.

001a01 ATTN: FAN 5 fault limit reached @ 0 RPM.

001a01 ATTN: brick auto power down in 30 seconds


The first one comes and goes:
Code:
001a01 ATTN: 2.5V level stabilized @  2.743V.
001a01 ATTN: 2.5V high warning limit reached  2.756V.

Not sure what to make of it, there is no 2.5V from the PSU so its either a fault in a DC/DC regulator on the motherboard or its derived from something on the ATX PSU that isn't within WTX specs.

The second problem then, the fan. Well, it wasn't spinning. I measured power between FANC and ground and it was very low, perhaps it wasn't meant to be powered from the motherboard. So I took power to the fan from a 4 pin molex. Now it spins. And after figuring out the fan wasn't giving any RPM readings, I swapped it out for the original fuel psu fan. And voila:

Code:
001a01-L1>fan
fan(s) are on.
fan 0 EXHAUST  rpm 1185 (142).
fan 1 HD       rpm 2157 (156).
fan 2 PCI      rpm 1573 (107).
fan 3 XIO 1    rpm 2274 (148).
fan 4 XIO 2    rpm 2157 (156).
fan 5 PS       rpm 4400 (0).


I'll post details tomorrow. Now I'm gonna take a picture of this mess and go to bed.

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:Onyx2R: :IRIS3130: :Onyx2: :O2000: :O200: :PI: :Fuel: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2: :Indy: :1600SW: :pdp8e:
:BA213: <- MicroVAX 3500 :BA213: <- DECsystem 5500 :BA215: <- MicroVAX 3300
Pictures of my collection: www.pdp8.se


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:06 am
Posts: 767
Location: Sweden
Nicely done Pontus!
This could very well be an option for fried PSU's, but it would be awesome if one could work out the fan issue altogether and get a (much) quieter Fuel PSU.

Oh, about the VT320... I'll make sure to include a bunch of VT510/VT520's when you come collect the ES45's. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:53 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 3769
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Hi Pontus, nice hack!

Would be nice to know your L1 firmware version, with my blue' Fuel I could not upgrade the L1 because it failed to 'detect' the PSU after that.

Oh, and AFAIK, 2.5V is used for the (DDR1) RAM, and is derived from some other voltage (usually the 12V line I think) by a VRM on your mainboard.

_________________
Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet :)
It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi

Currently in commercial service: Image :Onyx2:(2x) :O3x02L:
In the museum: almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted: GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:34 am 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 531
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
recondas wrote:
Outstanding!!

Very nicely done Pontus - Fuel owners worldwide you you a debt of gratitude.
Thank you! Your encouragement is much appreciated.
ramq wrote:
Nicely done Pontus!
This could very well be an option for fried PSU's, but it would be awesome if one could work out the fan issue altogether and get a (much) quieter Fuel PSU.
Thank you. Regarding the fan, It's probably just a matter of taking the PSU apart and run an extra the FANM cable out from the fan to the mother board connector.
ramq wrote:
Oh, about the VT320... I'll make sure to include a bunch of VT510/VT520's when you come collect the ES45's. :-)
vt terminals is always good to stock :) Hmm, ES45 you say, Coincidentally I just bought a bigger car.
jan-jaap wrote:
Hi Pontus, nice hack!

Would be nice to know your L1 firmware version, with my blue' Fuel I could not upgrade the L1 because it failed to 'detect' the PSU after that.

Oh, and AFAIK, 2.5V is used for the (DDR1) RAM, and is derived from some other voltage (usually the 12V line I think) by a VRM on your mainboard.
Thanks, much obliged.

Is this the version string you want?
Code:
SGI SN1 L1 Controller
Firmware Image B: Rev. 1.12.6, Built 04/22/2002 08:13:40


I won't have time to do anything more with this for a while, but I'll try to get that picture and the details up a.s.a.p

_________________
:Onyx2R: :IRIS3130: :Onyx2: :O2000: :O200: :PI: :Fuel: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2: :Indy: :1600SW: :pdp8e:
:BA213: <- MicroVAX 3500 :BA213: <- DECsystem 5500 :BA215: <- MicroVAX 3300
Pictures of my collection: www.pdp8.se


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:43 am 
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Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:52 pm
Posts: 87
Good work! Once you get a diagram worked out it should be possible to make an adapter cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:30 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 3769
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Pontus wrote:
Is this the version string you want?
Code:
SGI SN1 L1 Controller
Firmware Image B: Rev. 1.12.6, Built 04/22/2002 08:13:40


Yeah, that's a pretty old revision, last is 1.48.1 I think.

Sometime soon I'll have another look at the L1 of my Fuel. It's even older (1.9.15). If I feel brave I'll try to boot the newer L1 again.

_________________
Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet :)
It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi

Currently in commercial service: Image :Onyx2:(2x) :O3x02L:
In the museum: almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted: GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:51 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 531
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
So, what exactly have I done?
I bought one of these:
Attachment:
atx24.jpeg
atx24.jpeg [ 50.11 KiB | Viewed 593 times ]

and one of these:
Attachment:
EPS12V.jpg
EPS12V.jpg [ 17.83 KiB | Viewed 593 times ]

and one of these
Attachment:
fan.jpg
fan.jpg [ 14.09 KiB | Viewed 593 times ]

The wires are easily removed from the molex using two paper staples that has been straightened out. So I just moved the necessary wires around according to the scheme below. I kept the female side as it were and moved the wires in male molex. The left hand side in the table is thus the female, ATX side and the right is the male, WTX side.

Using ATX pinout and WTX pinout(look at the alternate one) I made this mapping. I also followed the wires back into the WTX PSU since the purpose of the wires were printed on the circuit board end. And thereby I could verify the pinout.
Code:
1 -- 1    | +3.3V
2 -- 2    | +3.3V
3 -- 4    | GND
4 --      | NC
5 -- 5    | GND
6 -- 6    | +5V
7 -- 8    | GND
8 -- 11   | PWR_OK
9 -- 7    | 5VSB
10 -- 21  | +12V
11 -- 22  | +12V
12 -- 14  | +3.3V
13 -- 13  | +3.3V
14 -- 20  | -12V
15 -- 15  | GND
16 -- 23  | PS_ON
17 -- 16  | GND
18 -- 9   | GND
19 -- 10  | GND
20 --     | NC
21 -- 17  | +5V
22 -- 18  | +5V
23 -- 19  | +5V
24 --     | NC


Three positions on the male connector has get special treatment:

Pin 3:
This is +3.3V sense. If I understand sense lines correctly you have to run the sense line as close to the load as possible for proper function. The sense line on the ATX side shares pin 13 with a +3.3V wire, it is usually a brown slightly thinner cable, but you have to open the PSU to be sure. Cut it and extend it to PIN 3 on the WTX side (it is not shared with any other wire)

Pin 12:
This is FANC, it should control fan speed. Read more below

Pin 24
This is FANM, it monitors fan speed. Connect to tachyometer pin on fan:
Attachment:
fan_pinout.jpg
fan_pinout.jpg [ 11.62 KiB | Viewed 593 times ]


Next you must swap GND and +12V on the P3 connector. Just to be sure, remove wires from pin 4 and 8. Like so:

Code:
1 -- 5 | +12V
2 -- 6 | +12V
3 -- 7 | +12V
4 --   | NC
5 -- 1 | GND
6 -- 2 | GND
7 -- 3 | GND
8 --   | NC


Concerns:
  1. The original Fuel PSU has sense lines on +3, +5V and +12V. ATX only on +3V. If accurate +5V and +12V is needed this might be a problem. But according to L1 they are well within margin when the system i idle.
  2. The WTX guidlines state that a 460W PSU should deliver 45A on +3.3V. Not many ATX PSU goes over 30A. Similar for +5V
  3. The FANC on pin 12 doesn't appear to work as expected. I expected that the wire would go directly to the fan header inside the PSU, but it looks like its going into one of the IC's, but I'm not sure. The FANC line stays put at +3.3V even when the system if powered down. This might be to low to start the fan from the PSU. Which might indicate that it is just a signal wire to a fan controller in the PSU.. but I don't know.. perhaps a good reason to get my oscilloscope out.
  4. Will This system handle load? We'll see I suppose :)


So, thats it for now :-) Here's how fun I've had:
Attachment:
fuel_running.jpg
fuel_running.jpg [ 475.01 KiB | Viewed 593 times ]


Edit: Totally forgot the EPS12V / P3 connector pin swap table

_________________
:Onyx2R: :IRIS3130: :Onyx2: :O2000: :O200: :PI: :Fuel: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2: :Indy: :1600SW: :pdp8e:
:BA213: <- MicroVAX 3500 :BA213: <- DECsystem 5500 :BA215: <- MicroVAX 3300
Pictures of my collection: www.pdp8.se


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:50 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 3769
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Good work!

Meanwhile, I've had a another look at the Fuel that didn't like it's PSU.

Here's some L1 output:
Code:
SGI SN1 L1 Controller
Firmware Image B: Rev. 1.9.15, Built 12/04/2001 16:21:34


001a01-L1>version
L1 1.9.15 (Image B), Built 12/04/2001 16:21:34    [P1 support]
001a01-L1>serial all

Data                            Location      Value
------------------------------  ------------  --------
Local System Serial Number      EEPROM        08:00:69:0B:C3:C2
Local Brick Serial Number       EEPROM        MED907
Reference Brick Serial Number   NVRAM         MED907

EEPROM      Product Name    Serial      Part Number           Rev  T/W
----------  --------------  ----------  --------------------  ---  ------
NODE        IP34            MED907      030_1707_002          D    00
MAC         MAC ADDRESS     ABC123      030_9999_001          A    00
PIMM        IP34PIMM        MDG739      030_1708_002          G    00
XIO         ASTODYB         MDG840      030_1725_001          D    00

EEPROM      JEDEC Info                Part Number         Rev
----------  ------------------------  ------------------  ---
DIMM 0      CE0000000000000026BAAE00  M3 46L3313BT1-CA0   0B
DIMM 2      CE0000000000000026C3AE00  M3 46L3313BT1-CA0   0B
DIMM 1      CE0000000000000028C12601  M3 46L3313BT1-CA0   0B
DIMM 3      CE00000000000000269CF500  M3 46L3313BT1-CA0   0B

001a01-L1>brick
rack: 001, slot: 01, partition: none, type: A, serial: MED907, source: EEPROM
001a01-L1>

So far so good. However:
Code:
001a01-L1>flash default a
001a01-L1>reboot_l1ERROR: Display reset error: no acknowledge
ERROR: Display write error: no acknowledge


SGI SN1 L1 Controller
Firmware Image A: Rev. 1.48.1, Built 01/22/2007 11:33:34


001?01-L1>version
L1 1.48.1 (Image A), Built 01/22/2007 11:33:34    [Base 1MB image]
001?01-L1>serial all

Data                            Location      Value
------------------------------  ------------  --------
Local System Serial Number      NVRAM         N0000000
Reference System Serial Number  NVRAM         N0000000
Local Brick Serial Number       EEPROM        MED907
Reference Brick Serial Number   NVRAM         MED907


EEPROM      Product Name    Serial         Part Number           Rev  T/W
----------  --------------  -------------  --------------------  ---  ------
BOARD 0     IP34            MED907         030_1707_002          D    00
BOARD 1     no hardware detected

001?01-L1>brick
rack: 001, slot: 01, partition: none, type: Unknown [2MB flash], serial:MED907, source: EEPROM
001?01-L1>

Major identity crisis! :?

Finally:
Code:
001?01-L1>pwr up
ERROR: no power supplies available.
001?01-L1>

However, I'm hesitant to blame this on the PSU and/or the wiring. It looks like the L1 didn't migrate it's config data when upgraded from a very old to the latest & greatest. I should have known

recondas wrote:
The strongest argument for an SGI-only power supply is jan-jaap's experience with the PS in his prototype Fuel becoming unrecognized after a firmware upgrade - which strongly suggests there's additional outside of the ATX-spec monitoring going on. But it might also be possible that j-j's pre-production prototype Fuel didn't include a PS with ATX2.1 fan and power monitoring capabilities.

I think that, between Pontus' work, and the obvious issues between the L1 software and my IP34 board, this is open for discussion.

I may try incremental L1 software updates on this Fuel, but I'd better be extra careful because if I loose flash bank B I brick the damn thing.

_________________
Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet :)
It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi

Currently in commercial service: Image :Onyx2:(2x) :O3x02L:
In the museum: almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted: GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 10:35 am
Posts: 3769
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
One more thing:

On the O350, I have a 2MB flash chip, and a 2MB L1 image:
Code:
speedo 1# l1cmd brick
rack: 001, slot: 01, partition: none, type: Chimera Server [2MB flash], serial:MTZ549, source: EEPROM
speedo 2# l1cmd version
L1 1.48.1 (Image B), Built 01/22/2007 11:34:34    [MIPS 2MB image]

But on the Fuel, I have:
Code:
001?01-L1>brick
rack: 001, slot: 01, partition: none, type: Unknown [2MB flash], serial:MED907, source: EEPROM
001?01-L1>version
L1 1.48.1 (Image A), Built 01/22/2007 11:33:34    [Base 1MB image]

The 'brick' command returns a 2MB flash chip, but a 1MB image is loaded. I'll take this with a grain of salt since it doesn't even know what it's talking to, but I have the feeling that the wrong L1 image is loaded. Which would explain a few things :mrgreen: Unfortunately, I don't have another Fuel handy, nor did anyone bother to mention 'l1cmd version' output in the 'hinv' forum ...

Edit: Google found it. The correct L1 image is the "Fuel/PE 1MB image", not "Base 1MB image".

_________________
Now this is a deep dark secret, so everybody keep it quiet :)
It turns out that when reset, the WD33C93 defaults to a SCSI ID of 0, and it was simpler to leave it that way... -- Dave Olson, in comp.sys.sgi

Currently in commercial service: Image :Onyx2:(2x) :O3x02L:
In the museum: almost every MIPS/IRIX system.
Wanted: GM1 board for Professional Series GT graphics (030-0076-003, 030-0076-004)


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:55 pm
Posts: 5155
Location: NC - USA
Pontus wrote:
And after figuring out the fan wasn't giving any RPM readings, I swapped it out for the original fuel psu fan.
It might not be related your fan issues, but when I added low noise fans to the O350/V10 I recently set up, I got fan failure messages. The "quiet" fans I used included a temperature sensor, and wouldn't even spin up until the O350 generated enough ambient heat - so they always generated a fan fail message at start up. I used a similar fix by adding a fan without a thermostat. Perhaps the original fan from your WTX power supply has a similar "low noise" feature.

jan-jaap wrote:
nor did anyone bother to mention 'l1cmd version' output in the 'hinv' forum ...
Guilty as charged :D However there are several that included the output of "flash status" run against the L1 - which gives the same info for both L1 firmware images. smj's 700MHz is at 1.44.4, and both of Fuels I have are at 1.26.5:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16725501
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16725486

_________________
***********************************************************************
Welcome to ARMLand - 0/0x0d00
running...(sherwood-root 0607201829)
* InfiniteReality/Reality Software, IRIX 6.5 Release *
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