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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:49 am 
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Quote:
A book I recently read nicely outlined this

Sounds interesting - would be great if you could cite the title...

Thank's a lot!

Cheers

HDC

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Unread postPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:56 pm 
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eMGee wrote:
As I may've posted already, I used to own a POWER4 system. Well, I hated it (or, ended up hating it) and got rid of it! I'd say the qualitative spirit of IBM died somewhere in the 1970s, since then they've been not much worse or better than M$ in my book. The only IBM system I still own is a boring xSeries 346 (that I use for network-distributed render jobs). I used to have a quad-processor xSeries 365, but I got rid of it because it (as a mere 4U system) produced almost as much sound as a fully-populated Origin3200 system and it didn't have EMT64 Xeons.

I only have this system because I found it real cheap. It makes terrible noise. HP and others makes far superior 2U RM systems, in my humble opinion of course.


SAQ wrote:
IBM POWER kit holds its value entirely too well.

What do you mean? I often see n-way POWER4, and increasingly POWER5, stuff thrown on eBay for under $ ~150. I can certainly understand why (I got rid of my 9114-275 real fast), it's such low quality trash and IBM is just the worst company second after M$ in my opinion. Many people (read: private individuals, i.e. enthusiasts), clearly, don't care for AIX. There's absolutely no community and extremely little F/OSS porting work in progress. I guess IBM doesn't care much (read: at all), which shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone either. IBM only got into the UNIX business because DEC, HP, Sun, SGI and such were involved and were possibly endangering IBM and its aging mainframe racket. (A book I recently read nicely outlined this.)

Why can't it be M$ and IBM to die, instead of DEC and SGI? There's clearly no justice, LOL.



I have to disagree with you... There is a lot of opensource software being compiled and packaged in .rpms for AIX.. and it's fairly up2date http://www.perzl.org/aix/
Also my 9111-285 is build like a tank and it works very well.. currently the fastest RISC box i own.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:26 am 
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eMGee wrote:
I'd say the qualitative spirit of IBM died somewhere in the 1970s, since then they've been not much worse or better than M$ in my book.

Blasphemy! Kill him with fire! :P

But seriously, POWER has blown everything away for a long time now. SPARC and Itanium aren't even competitive in performance. If you absolutely need the fastest systems money can buy, IBM delivers. Just because it doesn't get featured in movies doesn't mean it isn't an interesting platform. AIX is a solid operating system, albeit it is probably only intended as part of a DB2, WebSphere, or Oracle stack more so than for general use these days (with the exception of government HPC). It still does have some interesting features such as HACMP and hot patching the kernel. PowerVM is the real kicker. IBM has a long lead on virtualization. Mix and match AIX, Linux, and 'i' depending on what needs and legacy apps you need to support. Also, the xlC compiler is top notch.

In general, I find IBM gear nice to work with once you've learned the tricks. It may lack some of the personality of SGI, but I've never found quality lacking in the high end IBM gear. Sure, the PC biz went south after the PS/2, and there were a couple mediocre RS/6000s like the 43p but that was also a sub-$5k workstation. Modern X servers are pretty nice IMHO - I place IBM and HP on level ground at the top of the heap.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 11:34 am 
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For many years AIX has been at the top of the heap in terms of things you could do to tweak the OS without having to restart. Granted, my experience has been with POWER1 and POWER2 hardware, so say more about why the new stuff is trash (I do like to know before I waste money on it, but have been considering a POWER4 for a while to see what IBM's done since '95).

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:34 pm 
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Quote:
published in 1997 by DIGITAL Press.
Why not read a few IBM books published by IBM press or Microsoft books published by MICROSOFT press?


Quote:
Quote:
It may lack some of the personality of SGI
One of the best (certainly most amusing) understatements, ever.
IBM gear has lots of personality... my thinkpad just oozes that perfect badass thinkpad look that ALL thinkpads have, IBM or Lenovo. I even customized it with some contact paper over two years ago and that turned out nice IMO and has held up surprisingly well, thinkpads (ALL Thinkpads) are so sexy to begin with they are hard to improve and easy to screw up.
Attachment:
DSC03084_small.jpg
DSC03084_small.jpg [ 225.91 KiB | Viewed 1488 times ]
Sometimes the paper is darker than the thinkpad, and sometimes the paper is lighter than the thinkpad. It depends on the light ;)

ot: eMGee, you might not approve of what I did to my alpha to spruce it up :twisted: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=16719149&p=7289091&#p7289091 yes, you might call me a 'modder' but rest assured, it is still an alphastation 600 inside, and always will be. I also added black foam air filters to my octane, more of a practical thing but it greatly improved the aesthetic as well. the thread/post eludes me.



Quote:
It worked the other way around for me, once I learned about IBM gear, I became more and more agitated and repulsed. But especially after learning about IBM itself! (And having to deal with its personnel.)
I guess you have never tried to deal with SGI! IBM was quick to sell me that replacement battery when I called, call under 10 minutes, but I tried to talk to SGI about a monitor cable a few years ago (back when they were still SGI) and I got shuffled around their sales people a bunch, put on hold, talked to the same guy twice, and eventually hung up and bought the damn cable on ebay. Good riddance to SGI, may they rot in hell for having such an incompetent sales team. How do you expect to stay in business when you can't sell your customers your product? HP is the best though. Get your service manual, look up the part number (for me it was dv8000 hinges), type the part # into their site and your CC and address, and the part magically appears a few days later.

I will agree their desktop PCs are crap... for me it came down to the Intellistation A pro or HP xw9300... the IBM was $200, the HP was $500 (for about the same spec, the big difference being IBM had quadro 4500 and SCSI disk, and HP had radeon x300, sata disk... easy to upgrade myself) but the difference was immediately obvious in person. It was just missing on something intangable, and the non-standard two-piece planar (mainboard) turned me off.

So I may be a big thinkpad fan, and a big windows fan, but at least we can agree on something!

I will say it is pretty stupid to base a whole company on one product or bad experience. BUT here we are!

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:29 am 
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No.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:42 am 
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No where near there yet but play nice.

I am neither defending or attacking IBM.
My 9114-275 has a poor build quality on the plastics..
The older white RS/6000s like the J30 were built like tanks.. :shock:
My 7025-F80 isn't too bad build quality wise..
i am a registered IBM partner for all the good it does me.

R.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:22 am 
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PymbleSoftware wrote:
No where near there yet but play nice.


PymbleSoftware makes a good point. Being involved in a conversation here is not much different than doing so in real life. If you can't abide opinions other than your own, or all of your responses are sarcastic or condescending, you soon find you have no one to talk to.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:43 am 
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eMGee wrote:
Have you ever used AIX and POWER/PPC systems, or had to deal with IBM's customer support for those?


Haven't had to deal with IBM's support for UNIX, but when I did deal with them (Thinkpad, pre-Lenovo) they were courteous, fast and efficient. Of course you have to pay for that, once the warranty/service agreement ran out they were pretty much none of the above - but then again that's the official policy of most companies. The helpful people who were at SGI support and DEC support were doing that pretty much "under the table".

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Just to resume the original topic (owned machines)

7011-220 rs/6000
7011-250 rs/6000
7046-B50 rs/6000
7043-140 rs/6000(several)
7043-150 rs/6000
9114-275 pSeries (several)
9111-520 pSeries (2)
9406-520 iSeries
9406-600 as/400
9406-S10 as/400
9406-820 iSeries
9406-310 as/400
9401-150 as/400
9406-170 iSeries
7044-270 rs/6000
7025-F50 rs/6000
7006-410 rs/6000
7025-F80 rs/6000
7026-H80 rs/6000
7060-H30 S/390
7060-H30 S/390
3006-88 S/390
9076-SP2 sp2 system
9401-p03 as/400
7009-C10 rs/6000
9347-01 reel tape
9331-01 8" floppy unit
3173-63R ctrl.unit
9348-001 reel tape
3494-AX0 vtl

bunches of storage / laptops / xseries / laptops / switches / routers


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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:22 pm 
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Location: Milan, Italy
IBM hardware.. I've an original ibm safety helmet, sysadmin work is so dangerous sometime (on unix obviously)

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Unread postPosted: Thu Dec 09, 2010 5:41 pm 
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Hrm, only recently got in to "collecting" IBMs, and have a few not working ones I need to get rid of, anyway...

PC/AT in not-fully-known condition. (It only had an EGA card when I put it into storage. I didn't have an EGA monitor, nor an ISA VGA card, so I couldn't really test it. Now that I have an ISA VGA card, I need to dig it out.)
PS/2 model 77 - DX2/66, 24 MB RAM, triple-booting PC-DOS 6+Windows 3.1, OS/2 2.0 and OS/2 2.1
PS/2 model 25 - broken, first time I powered it on after getting it, something went *POW* in the power switch area.
PS/2 model 77 - Gets a nasty error code on boot, but this puppy's fully loaded! Original IBM caddy CD-ROM drive, 5.25" floppy drive, two hard drives, 32 MB RAM, network card.
PS/2 model 90 - Gets a nasty error code on boot
PS/ValuePoint 486 - DX4/100 upgrade, 16 MB RAM, bad hard drive.
PC300PL
PC350
One more Pentium-era desktop I'm forgetting

And two of the crown jewels of my collection:
ThinkPad 820 - only 16 MB RAM, bad CD-ROM drive, no battery, presently running NT 4.0 until I get around to getting AIX on it. With official PCMCIA IBM CreditCard Network card that works in Windows NT 4.0. The 16-bit Windows 3.1 version of IE 5 works just fine in NT 4.0/PPC.
IBM PC Power Series 850 - 32 (or is it 64?) MB RAM, one of the funky "all in the tray" CD-ROM drives, bad floppy drive, network card. It had been running NT 4.0, but I tried to load OS/2 PPC on it, and messed up the boot loader. Haven't gotten around to reloading the boot loader.

And a "Think" Pad. (very small wirebound paper notebook handed out at a tradeshow many years ago that said "THINK" on the cover. Not quite up to the fancy leather-bound notebooks of old, but funny nonetheless.)

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Unread postPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:09 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Quote:
IBM hardware.. I've an original ibm safety helmet, sysadmin work is so dangerous sometime (on unix obviously)


Ha ha, awesome! Looks like you're sporting a genuine IBM lanyard too. Can't speak to the provenance of the HW in the background
but a good bit of it looks like it could be Big Blue...

I've got a PS/2 50z and a couple of NetVistas lying around here, and a PC/XT that runs DOS 2.11 off a 5.25 floppy... 8-)

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 1:24 am 
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eMGee wrote:
Oh sure, at a gazillion gigahertz, with tons of cache memories and slurping power, elegant like a super-charged old-timer. (In other words: Let's just not compare instructions per watt, that would be rather painful.)

I find claims such as the above similar to what x86/-64 freaks love to boast, about their ‘bigger, better’ Linux ‘super computers.’


I'm not sure where you're going here or what prejudice you base this on. Clock speed and cache size are major contributors to execution speed. These processors also have 12 functional units, including a vector unit, for very wide superscalar execution. They've dialed up everything that makes up a CPU to the max. What else do you want? Oracle's recent 30 million tpcM submission to the TPC required a cluster with 108 CPU packages. IBM's 10 million tpcM entry had only 24 in a single frame. Your power usage claim is baseless.

Read up on the design of POWER4 though POWER7. It's a LOT more than raw clock speed. Frank Soltis's ("father" of the AS/400) book "Fortress Rochester" has some good insight on the move to POWER4, which unified the Integer RS64 with the Floating Point POWER3. Both of these were "brainiac" processors with many functional units, short pipelines, and low clock speeds. The POWER4 was their first clock speedy processor at the expense of a longer pipeline but these are easier to design and every other CPU maker had been and still is building these so they are easier to market.

Calling POWER7 a "super-charged old timer" is silly. POWER has significantly influenced or introduced: RISC, superscalar architecture, SMT/"hyperthreading", multpackage, multicore, hardware virtualization, eDRAM. IBM wins because they are a tier-1 silicon manufacturer and the techniques used in their design have consistently been borrowed by other manufactures and the lower end.

To each their own.

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Sun Ultra 27 Xeon Quad Core 3.20GHz, Sunblade 2500 Silver, SunFire V445
HP c8000

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Unread postPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Location: Milan, Italy
Quote:
Ha ha, awesome! Looks like you're sporting a genuine IBM lanyard too. Can't speak to the provenance of the HW in the background but a good bit of it looks like it could be Big Blue...


Hahah you saw good, IBM Total Storage lanyard, and in the backgroud an InfoWindow keyboard :)

I've got:
AS/400 9402-E02 (os400 v2r3)
iSeries 9401-250 (os400 v5r2)
pSeries 9114-275 (fiber channel boot AIX 5.3/6.1/7.1)

Thinpad X60s, X60 Tablet, X61s with UltraBase

A couple of InfoWindow 5250 terminal, Netvista desktop, Netfinity server, ThinkVision monitor, tape, media..


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