The Problem with Apple

Apple hardware/software and related topics.
Forum rules
Any posts concerning pirated software or offering to buy/sell/trade commercial software are subject to removal.
User avatar
Raion-Fox
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm
Location: near King George, Virginia
Contact:

The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Mar 03, 2017 4:35 pm

I've been wanting to make a rant about Apple for awhile now. I'm going to cover many topics quickly in succession and it will come off ranting.

If you're personally sensitive or passionate about your Apple brand loyalty, proceed with caution. What you read may upset you.

The biggest and most overarching problem is one that isn't unique to Apple, but they exemplify and bask in it shamelessly:

CONSUMERISM

What I mean by this is simply that they know they're encouraging it, they know they're ripping people off and they laugh in the faces of critics like me.

It all stretches back to when they killed the IIGS. the original all-in-one Mac was by all accounts pretty much inferior, overpriced and underpowered. The IIGS by comparison had tons of expandability, the 65816 was more efficient than the 68000 cycle for cycle and had similar offerings under the hood, AND Apple II backwards compatibility. AND IT WAS CHEAPER BY ALMOST $1000.

This anti-consumer, planned obsolescence is wasteful, greedy and an underlying reason why I've gone from loving Apple, to being one of the more vocal critics.

Now let's go to me. 12-year old me had a Pentium 4 based PC in 2005. I wanted an Apple because of their sleek and cool design. I remembered the "I'm a Mac and I'm a PC" commercials and my gullible 12-year old mind ate that for breakfast. So I saved up $400 over a year, found a G4 MDD at a local recycler, and by January 2007 I had myself a maxed out, 1.5GHz dual G4 PowerMac (I overclocked it by changing some jumpers on the CPU) I kept this computer for six years. It wasn't always my standby, but I used it for school work, video games and everything. I also got an iBook G4 and a PowerBook G4. By now, I had invested $2000 into my Apple addiction, and it was barely two years into it. In 2010, struggling with Apple's increasing abandonment of PPC users lead me to buy a Core Duo Mini for $300, use $200 to fully upgrade it with RAM, CPU, and HDD. Along the way, I had replaced my Powerbook and iBook power cords 2-3 times, each time at great expense, gotten an Apple branded monitor and eventually traded my iBook and Powerbook to people for a C2D Macbook Pro. I kept the G4 MDD around obviously. By this time, I had sunk $5000. In 2012, I upgraded to a $2.5k Retina Macbook Pro. And I had to get the SSD replaced twice under warranty. And once out of pocket when Apple told me "fuck you!" So I went to OWC and bought one of theirs. That cost a pretty penny. I got accessories for it, finally an Apple Airport, a Time Capsule, a SuperDrive and went off to college with my G4 MDD and Mini as well. Sold the G4 MDD in early 2013 for $150, then with my college roll work I saved up and bought a G5 AND a retired Mac Pro second gen. $8k by the end of that. The G5 was not the one I sold Classic. This was a dual CPU air cooled. The damn thing was louder than a 747 taking off. I traded it off and used the money along with my now dropout job of "tech support" to buy a trash can Mac Pro. By the end of it, along with iPhones, and cell plans and the like I sunk $15k. Then I discovered BSD. It was many times better than Linux to me, which I had dabbled in. I sold all of my Apple gear except for a liquid cooled G5. Sold the rMBP to my mother for $1.2K, she still uses it but being a mid-40s realtor her demands of a PC are LOW. The Mac Pros went to my uncle's office, the Mini to a friend who needed a PC. In total, I only made back $2k in cash from computers I'd sunk over $15k in.

BSD woke me up. I no longer had to deal with shitty plists, nor Linux's half baked documentation. I could customize an OS how I wanted it to work without having it fight me every step of the way. I was able to stop blowing money and complaining about being broke for once, managed to indulge my vintage PC hobbies (which I've spent less than a 3rd on over a much longer time!) which I had long neglected.

Let me get something straight. Apple has done some good. LLVM is something I'm grateful for, as well as Job's contributions in NeXT setting standards for UNIXes in the later part of the 1990s. But the quality of post G4 machines took a huge drop, and then again in 2011. They have fed consumerism, materialism, status symbol and shaming of the impoverished for decades.

Not to mention, even before the OS X days, they kept MacOS intentionally weakened on the inside because they had built a broken model of an OS and were not able to fix it. Cooperative multitasking into the early 2000's? Really? No memory protection? No commandlines? No customizability easily done by the end user? No wonder they've not learned. OS X is a cheap simulacrum of UNIX using 1980s reject technology (Mach).

Not to mention, even in the 1980s and 1990s the Atari TOS and AmigaOS/Workbench were far, far superior to Mac's offerings, not to mention the various UNIX OSes.

Let me get something straight. I'm not blaming Apple for my stupidity. I blame myself. But I do blame them for their predatory tactics and their exploitation of their customer base via classic vendor lock-in for shitty products.
:O3x02L: R16000 700MHz 8GB RAM kanna
:Octane: R12000 300MHz SI 896MB RAM yuuka
:Octane2: R12000A 400MHz V6 2.5GB RAM
:Indy: (Acclaim) R4600 133MHz XL Graphics 32MB RAM
:Indy: (Challenge S) R4600 133MHz (MIPS III Build Server)
Thinkpad R40 Pentium M 1.5GHz 2GB RAM kasha

Owner and operator of http://irix.pw

User avatar
japes
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 4:35 pm
Location: Lynnwood, WA

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby japes » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:11 pm

I don't agree that it was a post G4 quality drop - it was later. They had their misses sure, noisy (hissing) power regulation on first gen (Intel Core Duo) MacBook Pros was something I got to enjoy. Frankly, Steve Jobs is dead. Yes Jobs hated connectors and wires and expansion, but he did insist on quality.

The solid complaint is Apple doesn't know how to have a product lifecycle that doesn't end with a wastebasket. They can innovate the crap out of new product but beyond 3 years they don't want anything to do with it. ANYTHING.

Hardware gripes
Somewhere along the line Jonny Ive was left on his own and it's all about thinner and more sealed. I think it was terrible that the display had to be removed to service iMacs (easily introducing dust between the display and glass). When it became glue instead of magnets I think that was criminal - storage devices fail.

On the smallest laptops I can accept soldered-on/BTO memory - I have a hard time with that on the "Pro" laptops. Same with storage. Taking function keys off a Pro laptop because they're not used in Safari.App and Photos.App baffles me, or at least Esc - I use vi, but also use Esc to clear dialogs and popups in webpages (when the web developers implement Esc to close). Thinner and thinner, less batteries, less heat rejection capacity, the Pro laptops are closer to ultra-portables than a professional tool.

I don't hate the new laptops, but wonder why they aren't offering a machine that can gobble up video rendering and have enough batteries to run DDR4 memory so developers can run more VMs. I'd love to have a 13" MBP that was a little thicker and ran a quad core cpu myself. Where's the MacBook Pro Plus?

The Mac Mini and Mac Pro have been left out to dry. The Mini can't compete on price, not even with the rest of the Apple catalog. The Pro turned into a status symbol. The Pro makes no sense, without PCIe and more storage capacity it means accessories hanging off every port, and now it's all just old.

Software gripes
In software land you can complain about the OS, but it does what it needs to do...mostly. USB issues have been a problem for my circle of people. The USB issues wouldn't be so extreme if the laptops had ports, like Ethernet.

Complaining about Classic MacOS isn't very valid. That might as well be another company and a mismanaged problem all it's own.

Every time a new Mail.App comes out it changes how things work so users can't find their features, the quality control is gone so it stumbles until about 5 updates in...and this is how every accessory software and Apple software product seems to operate now.

Again, Jobs is dead and no one is fanatical enough to keep quality high. They have schedules to meet and they don't care if it's 95% instead of 99-100%.

macproexpansion-640x375.jpg
:O3000: :Fuel: :Tezro: :Tezro: :Octane2: :Octane: :Octane: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indigo: :O2: :1600SW: :O2: :1600SW: :1600SW: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :O3x0: :O3x02L: :O3x02L:

User avatar
Raion-Fox
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm
Location: near King George, Virginia
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:34 pm

japes wrote:I don't agree that it was a post G4 quality drop - it was later. They had their misses sure, noisy (hissing) power regulation on first gen (Intel Core Duo) MacBook Pros was something I got to enjoy. Frankly, Steve Jobs is dead. Yes Jobs hated connectors and wires and expansion, but he did insist on quality.


I'd argue that the G5 was the beginning of problems - the handful of G5 problems and early CD/C2D systems was a harbinger of the later problems to come. I remember the Macbook C2D I had had to have its thermal paste reapplied. Same thing with the Mini but I coupled it with a CPU upgrade.

japes wrote:The solid complaint is Apple doesn't know how to have a product lifecycle that doesn't end with a wastebasket. They can innovate the crap out of new product but beyond 3 years they don't want anything to do with it. ANYTHING.


This is what the consumerism drives. Unlike MS where they make money on software, they're gouging you on hardware.

japes wrote:In software land you can complain about the OS, but it does what it needs to do...mostly. USB issues have been a problem for my circle of people. The USB issues wouldn't be so extreme if the laptops had ports, like Ethernet.


It's very anti-power user, always has been. I respect Steve, but his OS he designed to bury all of the functionality a power user like myself would appreciate. I bought into it like a moron because I didn't want to deal with Linux on the desktop.

japes wrote:Complaining about Classic MacOS isn't very valid. That might as well be another company and a mismanaged problem all it's own.


Heh, then you'll be disappointed if you ever get me in on a rant about Chrysler. I bring up their failures as far back as the 1970s - because my father owned a 1977 Volare and it wouldn't idle. Wouldn't idle because Chrysler chose to neuter the ancient slant-6 instead of design a proper motor - quite similarly to how Apple neuters hardware in order to lock out competition.

japes wrote:Again, Jobs is dead and no one is fanatical enough to keep quality high. They have schedules to meet and they don't care if it's 95% instead of 99-100%.


Even when Jobs was alive he wasn't immune to mistakes. More often than not, he was a fucking idiot.
:O3x02L: R16000 700MHz 8GB RAM kanna
:Octane: R12000 300MHz SI 896MB RAM yuuka
:Octane2: R12000A 400MHz V6 2.5GB RAM
:Indy: (Acclaim) R4600 133MHz XL Graphics 32MB RAM
:Indy: (Challenge S) R4600 133MHz (MIPS III Build Server)
Thinkpad R40 Pentium M 1.5GHz 2GB RAM kasha

Owner and operator of http://irix.pw

User avatar
Elf
Donor
Donor
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:54 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest (US)

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Elf » Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:57 pm

For those that haven't seen the Folklore stories (although I am sure most here have), they are an interesting window into the early innovative days of Apple. It always seemed to me that Apple released products with quality engineering in spite of Steve Jobs, rather than because of him.

Make no mistake though, I do think Jobs was crucial to the success of the company. He realized that it wasn't technology that sold computers; it was image. He did have the sense to hire the best people, so that the product wouldn't gain a reputation as cheap or incapable, but engineering was never his first priority. I don't think it's too much of a surprise that the Apple of today isn't a computer company. It's a fashion company.

It doesn't matter what the latest iPhone does anymore. As long as it is a trendy fashion accessory, people will still line up along the block every single time. Likewise, desktop computers aren't cool anymore, so you can see where they focus their efforts.

Raion-Fox wrote:It's very anti-power user, always has been. I respect Steve, but his OS he designed to bury all of the functionality a power user like myself would appreciate. I bought into it like a moron because I didn't want to deal with Linux on the desktop.

I think he was always that way. It brings to mind the story of Burrell's Diagnostic Port.
:Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :O2: :O2: :Octane: :Octane: :Fuel: :Tezro:
:Indy: [x19] :Indigo: [x7] :O2: [x4]

User avatar
commodorejohn
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby commodorejohn » Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:13 pm

I'll give Jobs this, from the folklore.org stories you really get a sense that he was the one who really understood the need for elegant, consistent design in tech - and that's why, technical shortcomings aside, the Mac offered the absolute most intuitive user experience in the industry for at least a decade (until the late '90s and the plague of needless skeuomorphism.) Compare that to the lumpy, awkward progression of the Windows UI from 3.x to 9x to XP to 7, or the watchagot stew of *nix UI with each and every application bringing its own choice of widget library, usability standards, and forty or fifty particular deviations from said standards to the table.

That said, he is absolutely the most unwarrantedly hagiographied figure in all of computing. Only Richard Stallman comes close.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/SH-09/HS-80/MT-32/D-50, Yamaha DX7-II/V50/TX7/TG33/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini/ARP Odyssey/DW-8000/M1, Ensoniq SQ-80, E-mu Emax HD/Proteus-2, Casio CZ-5000, Moog Satellite, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600

User avatar
tomvos
Donor
Donor
Posts: 134
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:08 pm
Location: Aachen, Germany, Europe
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby tomvos » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:50 am

Since bashing Apple has become everybodies favorite pastime, I'd like to chime in ;-)

Disclaimer: I don't depend on Apple to earn my money, I'm quite relaxed at the moment. But I can understand why people are not satisfied with Apple's current notebook and desktop hardware lineup.

Personally, my gripes are with the Mac Pro. At the moment I have a 5,1 Mac Pro with some decent upgrades. It's a fine machine, a real workhorse.
Nevertheless, I like the 6,1 Mac Pro (a.k.a. Trashcan). It reminds me of the SGI O2. I might would have bought one, however Apple seemingly did not care about the 6,1 Mac Pro. What annoys me are two facts:

1. The Mac Pro is prone to crash.

Some systems are plagued by strange lockups. Hey, everybody can make mistakes, but not being able to fix a system which easily costs about $ 5,000 is a sign of "We don't really care."

2. Why did Apple not upgrade the system?

The 6,1 Mac Pro has some obvious points of improvements.
• Like adding the possibility to add a second storage device internally.
• Some newer CPU and GPU.
• Enabling ECC on the GPUs.
• Offering nVidia GPUs to allow CUDA based applications.

Again, this looks like not caring about a product. That is a message, which gives me second thoughts when deciding about a purchase.


And finally: I really wish people would stop with this stupid argument that the iPhone has taken business share from the Mac. Because it's not true. The Mac still does generate more revenue now than it did in the years we consider the mac prime time. And I believe that with proper care, the Mac could even do better than it does now.

P.S.
If Apple would discontinue the Mac Pro, I would most likely consider buying a final Mac Pro as a collectors item.
:Fuel: :Octane2: :O2: :O2: :1600SW: :Indy: :Indy:
Where subtlety fails us we must simply make do with cream pies.

User avatar
Trippynet
Donor
Donor
Posts: 807
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:22 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland, UK

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Trippynet » Sat Mar 04, 2017 3:09 am

My biggest gripe with Apple is that they have gone down a deliberate path lately of making their equipment as disposable as possible. Apple don't want you to keep kit beyond a few years, they want you to repeatedly throw it in the bin and buy new ones, and have done everything they can to deliberately shorten the lifespan of their products to facilitate this.

Back when I had an iPhone 3G, you could remove two screws from the bottom, then the whole thing popped apart so that it could be repaired quite easily. New iPhones are highly fused together with glue and are almost impossible to repair.

More seriously though are their systems. I have a Mac Mini G4 (rarely used now), and a Core 2 Duo Mac Mini (in daily use). Both have received numerous upgrades. When I bought the Intel Mac Mini, it had 512MB of RAM and an 80GB hard drive. Now, it has 4GB of RAM and a 750GB drive. These upgrades have extended the life of it nicely, and it still chugs along fine.

With the newer Mac Minis, until recently you could pop the bottom off and upgrade the RAM without too much trouble. In the latest ones though, the removable panel is still there, but now the RAM is soldered to the board underneath. There's only one reason they've done this, and its to either make you pay through the nose when you buy it to upgrade it at their extortionate prices (Apple charge an eye-watering £180 to go from 8GB of RAM to 16GB at the moment for example - despite an actual 8GB stick of DDR4 selling for £50), or to ensure that you have to throw it away once the RAM limit becomes a problem a few years down the line.

Then you've got their laptops which are also now held together with glue and solder, and which receive terrible scores from iFixIt for repairability. I hate the idea of companies using such tactics to make their kit as disposable and none-upgradable as possible, and this is the primary reason that my two current Mac Minis will be the last Apple products I have for a while. Once my current Mac Mini becomes too long in the tooth, I'll just replace it with a mini PC.
Systems in use:
:Indigo2IMP: - Nitrogen: R10000 195MHz CPU, 384MB RAM, SolidIMPACT Graphics, 36GB 15k HDD & 300GB 10k HDD, 100Mb/s NIC, New/quiet fans, IRIX 6.5.22
:Fuel: - Lithium: R14000 600MHz CPU, 4GB RAM, V10 Graphics, 72GB 15k HDD & 300GB 10k HDD, 1Gb/s NIC, New/quiet fans, IRIX 6.5.30
Other system in storage: :O2: R5000 200MHz, 224MB RAM, 72GB 15k HDD, PSU fan mod, IRIX 6.5.30

Y888099
Posts: 523
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:00 am

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Y888099 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:24 am

Raion-Fox wrote:I bought into it like a moron because I didn't want to deal with Linux on the desktop.


I can not understand what's wrong with linux. It's shitty software designed by apes, but can not you simply see it as a tool?
Can'd you load and execut the ostrich algorithm in your head? it can never be wrong, and you will have success.

No need to buy McDonald's book. Money saved. Problem solved :D

japes wrote:less heat rejection capacity, the Pro laptops are closer to ultra-portables than a professional tool


my brother happened to own one of those McDonald's books. Pro line, 1500 Euro was paid through bank money transfer, with the machine gone to Apple Center because the heatsink was not able to satisfy the power need required in FEM analysis. Seriously? He trashed it and bought a laptop made by DELL.

japes wrote:Where's the MacBook Pro Plus?


I guess it won't happen. I believe in the near future Apple will sell iPhone, iPod, and iPad, but not computers.
(because, after a quarter of century, now we know Apple is not able to build computers)
Head Full of Snow. Lemon Scented You

User avatar
guardian452
Donor
Donor
Posts: 3447
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: United States
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:47 pm

I really liked apple stuff - to the point of being called a fanboy and being proud of it. But those days are gone. I use a macpro1,1 at work. I have macbookpro11,1 that I've upgraded a fair bit. I like my ipad pro too even tho I don't use it very often. It was free, I'd probably feel different about it if I had paid for it. My macbook air went to hell and back and survived better than any other laptop could have hoped for. I liked my apple watch but I sold it when I switched to an xperia phone.

The biggest letdown for me has been the newer iphones. slow and buggy apps, drop calls all the time, doesn't work well with bluetooth audio devices. (the 'genius' tried to sell me a set of wired headphones for $29 - like it's 1987 and I'm going to use wired headphones :lol: - and that wouldn't fix bluetooth speaker and car radio issues). I also run and use nike run club, iphones don't like cold/heat/sweat very much. NRC is so much reliable and faster on android they shouldn't even bother with an iphone version IMO.

My iphone 4s was great. IT provided me first with a 5s which was good, then a buggy 6s which was bad, and comically oversized. He tried to give me a 7 plus which looked good but has the same buggy ios problems, was much bigger than a too-big 6s, and just didn't want to deal with camera that can't autofocus and crashes the whole phone all the time. So I bought my own phone for work and have been happy as a clam. Oh yes, I also have a mobile hotspot now because it's built into android without having to pay extra to turn it on.



However the apple machines I have are getting old and being replaced by non-apple machines and there is definite improvement. The improvement to keyboard, trackpad, screen, build quality, etc, are worth upgrading from MBP to razer stealth, let alone having a real TB3 port (was not available on mac in early 2016 when I bought the razer) and high-power GPU to plug into it. Windows is better than mac nowadays for me, but it is fully slackware-compatible too. The only advantage apple has over razer is price and customer service, neither of which I care about.

The mac pro was replaced with a thinkpad w520 when the mac was sick (bad ram, tho I replaced it and now it's working again). The thinkpad's wheezing fan is annoying but... it's portable(-ish)! I'll move over to a synology soon because the macpro is just a file server right now and it eats a lot of energy for that.

At some point, I'd say around 2015 or so if I had to pick one year, apple software and hardware started sucking and windows has eclipsed it. I'm not sure when this happened but I finally noticed in 2016, and when I got the xperia and realized how much better the google services were (esp. g-photos vs. mac photos) I never looked back.

Most of the tools I use are available for both mac and windows (e.g. matlab (simulink), C-compiler, autocad) and the ones that weren't are windows-only and I used to run in fusion. If I was *forced* to rely on a mac specifically for work, or made my money through the app store, I'd be feeling kinda shitty right now.


Edit: added later:

I also disagree with your whole anti-consumerism schtick. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Apple is just top of the league right now. Technical nerdy types dismiss the genius of Jobs and Ive, but without making something people want to buy, you can't sell product and you don't exist as a company. Lot of people in my field (engineering) dismiss design programs and liberal arts and suggest STEM programs instead, but then out the other side of their mouth they are complaining about how ugly all of the new cars on the market are.

I still use an AEBS 5th gen because... it still works damn fast. I get 20+ megabytes/sec consistently with many devices connected in a dense apartment building. Never had to reboot it even once, tho I bought in 2012. And it doesn't look like a spaceship.

Still love my thunderbolt display... really wish they would have made a modern version with TB3 and I would have bought it in a heartbeat to use with my razer laptop. Look up some of the bugs people have with that ugly LG thing and the so-called "apple tax" starts to make a lot more sense. It was good value, because not only did you get a screen worth $600 (e.g. similar model from dell) at the time, you also got another $80 magsafe, $20 USB hub, $50 firewire, $50 webcam, speakers about as good as a $200 compact stereo, and the priceless convenience of just two plugs and having it all wrapped up in a package sturdy enough to bludgeon an intruder with, for $1000. People compared the number of pixels, etc, to a plasticky dell with none of the extras, and never cared about the actual experience. But the fact that they were still selling this 2009 screen, unchanged and full-price, in 2016, was damn near criminal.

I really liked the 2013 mac pro and was planning to buy one as newer models came out and the prices dropped. But, newer models never came out, and even more perversely, the prices never dropped for new or used units. As it is, apple needs to discontinue it, like two years ago now. Offer 8- and 12-core xeons and maybe ECC ram in the current 27" imac chassis and call it the new mac pro.

I hope apple pulls their head out their asses and starts to offer useful apps with their computers again. But, itunes, photos, mail, iwork/ilife, these were the programs that used to make the mac great. Now we have a well-designed OS to run 3rd party apps in, because what is built-in is junk crapware like what you get preloaded on a discount PC from target. Except *those* machines at least come with a usable music player or six out of the box. I don't think I could ever go fully mac-free because there is just nothing like preview.app anywhere else and that is just one tiny example of something they haven't yet ruined :lol:


Trippynet wrote:... which receive terrible scores from iFixIt for repairability.


No, sorry, I hate those morons and I love apple and all the other technology vendors for consistently pissing them off. That backwards head-up-the-ass mentality is a skid mark on the underpants of society. We should all go back to horse drawn carriages because those are easier to figure out than fuel injection.

Modern technology requires modern repair techniques. If a broke college kid can't fix it in a dorm room with a $4.99 screwdriver kit from harbor freight, well, I don't really give a damn. And if you can't afford to replace a $20 charging cable once in a while, and complain that the cheap knockoffs trigger an MFI warning, maybe you shouldn't have spent $800 on the damn phone in the first place.

robespierre
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:28 pm
Location: Boston

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby robespierre » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:25 pm

I think you'll find a lot of the historic problems were pretty well documented and explained. The long tenure of crashable MacOS was the result of heavy optimization in the early Macintosh era. Keep in mind that the original Mac Toolbox and OS needed to fit in 64KB of ROM (there was only 128KB of RAM, so the OS couldn't be loaded there). That set the pattern for all the later developments, and software compatibility meant that they couldn't redesign the architecture de novo. With an API based on events, instead of interrupts, preemptive multitasking is harder to achieve. The difficulty of implementing memory protection also isn't too surprising, since AmigaOS was never able to do it either. Apple tried, for years, with Copeland/NuKernel but was never able to ship a product with the level of compatibility they needed.

A/UX was a valiant effort that could have led to greater things, but from what I've heard it was a victim of power struggles between divisions that Apple has always had. There were a lot of projects that could have been really influential but got killed off, like MAE, GX, and the Gotham QD3D card. Dylan running on the Newton. Or MacSmalltalk.

For some reason many people get confused about why Steve Jobs was a great visionary and how rare that really is. It has nothing to do with being a good person. Nice people don't shape the future (remember what Shaw said about the unreasonable man):
https://steveblank.com/2016/10/24/why-t ... -at-apple/
Considering the massive expense and eccentric tastes in evidence at the new headquarters, a more apt comparison might be Ludwig II.
:PI: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2IMP:

User avatar
commodorejohn
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:37 pm

guardian452 wrote:No, sorry, I hate those morons and I love apple and all the other technology vendors for consistently pissing them off. That backwards head-up-the-ass mentality is a skid mark on the underpants of society. We should all go back to horse drawn carriages because those are easier to figure out than fuel injection.

Modern technology requires modern repair techniques. If a broke college kid can't fix it in a dorm room with a $4.99 screwdriver kit from harbor freight, well, I don't really give a damn. And if you can't afford to replace a $20 charging cable once in a while, and complain that the cheap knockoffs trigger an MFI warning, maybe you shouldn't have spent $800 on the damn phone in the first place.

Horseshit. This is naked anti-consumer belligerence, pure and simple. Nothing about "modern technology" requires you to goddamn glue a battery into place instead of making it replaceable.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/SH-09/HS-80/MT-32/D-50, Yamaha DX7-II/V50/TX7/TG33/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini/ARP Odyssey/DW-8000/M1, Ensoniq SQ-80, E-mu Emax HD/Proteus-2, Casio CZ-5000, Moog Satellite, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600

User avatar
Raion-Fox
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm
Location: near King George, Virginia
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:52 pm

guardian452 wrote:I also disagree with your whole anti-consumerism schtick. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Apple is just top of the league right now. Technical nerdy types dismiss the genius of Jobs and Ive, but without making something people want to buy, you can't sell product and you don't exist as a company. Lot of people in my field (engineering) dismiss design programs and liberal arts and suggest STEM programs instead, but then out the other side of their mouth they are complaining about how ugly all of the new cars on the market are.


The problem is that if we build disposable computers, cars, phones etc. then people will not care what the waste of resources they do when they destroy their things. It used to be that people took care of their possessions more, they handled their cars with care due to the inherent delicate nature of the old cars of the 1950s-1970s. Points broke on those all the time, the engine would break in no time if you didn't do required maintenance etc. Nowadays, I can see a car go 50-90k before breaking down because the retard behind the wheel doesn't believe in oil changes, basic maintenance etc. They're all part of the problem, the disease.

guardian452 wrote:People compared the number of pixels, etc, to a plasticky dell with none of the extras, and never cared about the actual experience. But the fact that they were still selling this 2009 screen, unchanged and full-price, in 2016, was damn near criminal.


The fact is that most of the people I've met don't fucking want to blow thousands on a fucking monitor. I paid $400 for my two ASUS 23.5" 1080P screens. They're staying until they break. With Apple, the newest piece of shit comes out and BOOM, everything else is incompatible - GOTTA GO TO THE FUCKING STORE AND GET A FUCKING MONITOR, MOUSE AND KEYBOARD AND EVERYTHING ALL OVER AGAIN!

guardian452 wrote:I hope apple pulls their head out their asses and starts to offer useful apps with their computers again. But, itunes, photos, mail, iwork/ilife, these were the programs that used to make the mac great. Now we have a well-designed OS to run 3rd party apps in, because what is built-in is junk crapware like what you get preloaded on a discount PC from target. Except *those* machines at least come with a usable music player or six out of the box. I don't think I could ever go fully mac-free because there is just nothing like preview.app anywhere else and that is just one tiny example of something they haven't yet ruined :lol:


As long as people keep falling for the whole status symbol and retard marketing they won't ever go back. They'll decay further and further until they're like Chrysler is for cars - a shell of a once great company that makes absolute horseshit and won't ever amount to anything more than your PCP-hyped boss's poor man's "Bentley" flying brick that leaks more oil than an RX-7 in sub-zero weather.

guardian452 wrote:No, sorry, I hate those morons and I love apple and all the other technology vendors for consistently pissing them off. That backwards head-up-the-ass mentality is a skid mark on the underpants of society. We should all go back to horse drawn carriages because those are easier to figure out than fuel injection.


Dude, your analogy sucks. I can tell you that carburetors are definitely not any better than fuel injection since computer controlled systems can start easier and have better economy. You are comparing that kind of analogy to a company that glues fucking batteries to the fucking case and makes it so you have to get a whole new motherboard if your RAM fails There's not a single ounce of comparison. I can plug an OBD II scanner in, see everything the car's doing while its running in real time. If I tried replacing a battery in a Macbook Pro I'll be taking a razor blade to the case so I can replace the FUCKING BATTERY. It would make sense if they used a security bit, special clip/tab system like a Lexus or something else that didn't make their computers disposable. Don't insult me or other people by claiming we're backwards for demanding computers that can be fixed without their pothead "Genius" morons looking at it.

robespierre wrote:I think you'll find a lot of the historic problems were pretty well documented and explained. The long tenure of crashable MacOS was the result of heavy optimization in the early Macintosh era. Keep in mind that the original Mac Toolbox and OS needed to fit in 64KB of ROM (there was only 128KB of RAM, so the OS couldn't be loaded there). That set the pattern for all the later developments, and software compatibility meant that they couldn't redesign the architecture de novo. With an API based on events, instead of interrupts, preemptive multitasking is harder to achieve. The difficulty of implementing memory protection also isn't too surprising, since AmigaOS was never able to do it either. Apple tried, for years, with Copeland/NuKernel but was never able to ship a product with the level of compatibility they needed.
[/quote]

AmigaOS had preemptive multitasking, a rather ingenious, if hack way of doing it, memory management. Hell, the OS technically doesn't have a microkernel - just a baseline necessary to facilitate application-application communication.

MacOS was burdened by Job's demand of a fully graphical OS. If they had done what AmigaOS did (Kickstart, the baseline, in ROM, everything else from floppy) then we wouldn't have had the demands of the OS. The Apple Macintosh was entirely obsolete within months of release. The ST, Amiga, and the later IIGS all outclassed it. Yet Jobs continued to snort blow while enjoying the smell of his own BO and farts while his products languished.

A/UX I've used. It's not anything special. I'd even stretch to say Amiga UNIX was better, though I have a bias as I had a 3000UX as a kid.

You don't have to be an asshole to be innovative. Wozniak was the opposite of Jobs. I have infinite respect for Wozniak.
:O3x02L: R16000 700MHz 8GB RAM kanna
:Octane: R12000 300MHz SI 896MB RAM yuuka
:Octane2: R12000A 400MHz V6 2.5GB RAM
:Indy: (Acclaim) R4600 133MHz XL Graphics 32MB RAM
:Indy: (Challenge S) R4600 133MHz (MIPS III Build Server)
Thinkpad R40 Pentium M 1.5GHz 2GB RAM kasha

Owner and operator of http://irix.pw

User avatar
commodorejohn
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:31 am

Raion-Fox wrote:It used to be that people took care of their possessions more, they handled their cars with care due to the inherent delicate nature of the old cars of the 1950s-1970s.

Delicate, hell! I've been driving a '69 Volkswagen for two years now, and it's given me infinitely less trouble than any one of the '90s sedans I drove prior to that, with only the most basic maintenance required. The plain fact is they just used to build shit to last instead of break down the nanosecond after the warranty runs out.

You don't have to be an asshole to be innovative. Wozniak was the opposite of Jobs. I have infinite respect for Wozniak.

This bears repeating, because the comparison could not be more illuminating. One was an overbearing design director with really good marketing, the other is a plain genius who's gentle and self-effacing. And which one gets all the credit, now?

Also, as regards the Mac, the Amiga, and memory protection: it was just a fundamental oversight because nobody at the time thought it would be necessary for a home-computer OS. The problem is that in both cases, so many fundamental design decisions were made in light of the decision not to bother with it that it became effectively impossible to fix it later on while still maintaining compatibility.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/SH-09/HS-80/MT-32/D-50, Yamaha DX7-II/V50/TX7/TG33/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini/ARP Odyssey/DW-8000/M1, Ensoniq SQ-80, E-mu Emax HD/Proteus-2, Casio CZ-5000, Moog Satellite, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600

User avatar
Raion-Fox
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1393
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm
Location: near King George, Virginia
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:36 am

Dude I was talking more about American cars of the day. German cars are built like tanks. If you get a VW still made in Wolfsburg it will last forever. The Mexican ones... Not so much.

Need I remind anyone of the Chevy Vega, the Volare (My dad had one!), the Corvair or the Pinto for some of the most spectacular fails of the 1970s cars? People had to take better care of their cars back then or they'd fall apart!
:O3x02L: R16000 700MHz 8GB RAM kanna
:Octane: R12000 300MHz SI 896MB RAM yuuka
:Octane2: R12000A 400MHz V6 2.5GB RAM
:Indy: (Acclaim) R4600 133MHz XL Graphics 32MB RAM
:Indy: (Challenge S) R4600 133MHz (MIPS III Build Server)
Thinkpad R40 Pentium M 1.5GHz 2GB RAM kasha

Owner and operator of http://irix.pw

User avatar
commodorejohn
Posts: 654
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm
Contact:

Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:45 am

Ah, fair enough.

Though really, even the old '70s land-yacht my dad used to drive held up a hell of a lot better in every respect save the gawdawful vinyl seats.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/SH-09/HS-80/MT-32/D-50, Yamaha DX7-II/V50/TX7/TG33/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini/ARP Odyssey/DW-8000/M1, Ensoniq SQ-80, E-mu Emax HD/Proteus-2, Casio CZ-5000, Moog Satellite, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600


Return to “Apple”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest