The Problem with Apple

Apple hardware/software and related topics.
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pierocks
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby pierocks » Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:03 am

I choose Apple hardware specifically because I don't have to dick around with it. And as far as "expandability" goes, who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD. I've got my music collection, and that's about it. Documents/spreadsheets go on google docs, everything else goes to my NAS. Maybe you are editing HD video or something, but then you aren't a huge majority of the Apple user base.

And don't get me started with this user replaceable battery nonsense. I mean, I guess gluing them in less than ideal. But at the end of the day, I've been using Apple laptops since 2002 and I have literally never replaced a single laptop battery in any of them. If making the battery a funky shape allows you to get more in the case, and gluing it in gives the whole assembly better support, then why the hell not. I'd rather have a machine that's more durable, with fewer moving parts, than something I can fully disassemble on a whim. Think about how many times in your life the first step in troubleshooting problems with a computer has been "unseat and reseat all connections." Why not eliminate the possibility of connectors working themselves loose on a portable machine?

My only gripes with Apple at this point have to do with their aggressive policy of non-configurability of certain mundane parts of the OS. Lately, it's been the lack of key mapping. I use a third party keyboard, and there's no way for me to map keys on my keyboard to volume control without a third-party app. Or not being able to remove stuff I never use from my menu bar. But for as well as everything else functions together the rest of the time, I don't care about these extremely minor issues.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:47 pm

Elf wrote:From the Macbook case to ground: 56.35 VAC and 82.6 uA, going at times to about 118 uA. Not too bad I guess. It didn't bother me. Of course a lot of the people complaining also live in 240V countries.


My wife's MacBook Air is Australian and her wallwart has a ground plug. OTOH, my US MBA does not, of course.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby commodorejohn » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:54 pm

pierocks wrote:And as far as "expandability" goes, who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore?

Man, I've got dozens of gigabytes of data just in my games folder alone, and I'm not even the kind of person who plays modern AAA titles where "normal" is ~20 GB apiece. And that's not even getting into my music collection, my local copies of favorite webcomics and other works from various digital artists (because, let's face it, nothing is permanent on the Web, even if we're past the point where entire hosting services can just up and vanish into the night like they did in the '90s,) videos, etc. etc.

Sure, if I wanted to impress all my trendy hipster friends with how tech-savvy I am, I could set up a NAS on my home wireless network and revel in how ethereal and cable-free my life is. On the other hand, I could keep it on my hard drive and be able to access it anywhere, even if I'm some place with sucky or nonexistent Internet, and actually get reasonable transfer speed.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby japes » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:23 pm

I'm all for local copies, but you need a backup too. So yes I think I'd rather have a NAS. More and more I'm not sure I want to travel with a laptop that has any data or personal information since the boarder patrols are interested in looking at electronic devices.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Trippynet » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:30 pm

pierocks wrote:And as far as "expandability" goes, who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD. I've got my music collection, and that's about it. Documents/spreadsheets go on google docs, everything else goes to my NAS.


Me. I've got two NASs, one was always a bit flaky and is no longer used, the other works OK, but is slow (roughly 30MB/s max transfer rate) and is limited to 1.5TB drives. My main PC has two 3TB RAID-1 arrays filled with games, music, videos etc, and it just works - and is fast. Whenever I'm away from home, my laptop has all sorts of movies, videos etc. on it, plus lots of games as well. Of the 256GB SSD, maybe 10GB is free?
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby josehill » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:50 pm

pierocks wrote:who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD.


People who live in rural areas without lots of broadband.
People who spend lots of time in hotel rooms, on VPNs, or on clients' modest guest networks.
People who've been burned by unreliable cloud syncing.
etc. etc.

So, maybe not the majority of folks, but still lots of 'em.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:00 pm

pierocks wrote:I choose Apple hardware specifically because I don't have to dick around with it. And as far as "expandability" goes, who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD. I've got my music collection, and that's about it. Documents/spreadsheets go on google docs, everything else goes to my NAS. Maybe you are editing HD video or something, but then you aren't a huge majority of the Apple user base.


Hey Pierocks, thanks for joining the discussion. You raise an interesting point. While I have a NAS, and several smaller backup devices as well, I, like CommodoreJohn, have games on my local disk. This necessitates either shuffling games around off and on external storage, deleting/redownloading from Steam etc. on a small disk like a MBP (My last had a 256GB SSD, wayy too small for my use) I had to carry around a USB 1TB HDD to hold my stuff. Not to mention MATLAB, Visio, music and other sometimes hugely bulky stuff. I'm also an audiophile and thus store my music mostly lossless. That adds up dude.

As for us not being a huge majority of the user base, nobody is here. We're enthusiasts for computers that went out of production more than a decade ago. If you're claiming it's good enough for your average John Doe and Jane Doe, take it from me - even computer illiterate users don't generally like a computer, or its parent company, mocking them and telling what they should and shouldn't be doing.

pierocks wrote:And don't get me started with this user replaceable battery nonsense. I mean, I guess gluing them in less than ideal. But at the end of the day, I've been using Apple laptops since 2002 and I have literally never replaced a single laptop battery in any of them. If making the battery a funky shape allows you to get more in the case, and gluing it in gives the whole assembly better support, then why the hell not. I'd rather have a machine that's more durable, with fewer moving parts, than something I can fully disassemble on a whim. Think about how many times in your life the first step in troubleshooting problems with a computer has been "unseat and reseat all connections." Why not eliminate the possibility of connectors working themselves loose on a portable machine?


So based on your anecdotes then me having to replace batteries in my laptops means I abuse my computers or something? Or the fact that my mother had to go to Apple and they had to replace her rMBP when her battery failed? They had to give her a whole new computer. This is not good. Apple is making disposable hardware for the purpose of peddling their cheap trash at thousands on markup. They don't make money on OS X or iOS since it all comes bundled, unlike how MS has suites of programs and stuff, they have to turn a profit on the hardware thus, and I'm sure a low end Macbook doesn't cost them at their economy of scale more than 4-500 to make.

You may be okay with paying 1,000-2,000 dollars and up for an overpriced, underpowered computer that needs to be replaced when it breaks, no matter what. But I paid just over a grand over a period of a few months for my W530. I can replace the CPU, battery, RAM, drives and so-on without disposing the entire machine and starting over. How is my system not the future and yet Apple is? I know you didn't claim that, but user serviceability will likely always be an aspect of computers that will be in demand. So these are questions to be answered, and man, 10-20 years in the future when someone sees this on archive.org or elsewhere, they'll either agree with me or agree with my detractors. Time will tell.

pierocks wrote:My only gripes with Apple at this point have to do with their aggressive policy of non-configurability of certain mundane parts of the OS. Lately, it's been the lack of key mapping. I use a third party keyboard, and there's no way for me to map keys on my keyboard to volume control without a third-party app. Or not being able to remove stuff I never use from my menu bar. But for as well as everything else functions together the rest of the time, I don't care about these extremely minor issues.


Non-configurability and non-serviceability were Steve Job's goals. Now you know why I respect Wozniak far more than Jobs. I'd rather use Windows than OS X or Linux, and thats because while Windows sucks for a lot of tasks it still gives me the necessary control I need for things. FoxBSD, while essentially a pet project, will eventually turn out to embody my ideal of free configuration while employing safety, security and performance. Will it ever replace Windows? Nope. It isn't designed to.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Krokodil » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:14 pm

pierocks wrote:who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD.


This guy.

My files are mine and I expect them to be available at all times. I have a NAS with a 1TB and 320GB HDD in it for sharing files between computers and it has lots of movies and games on it.

Will be adopting M-Discs for long term cold storage of data as well.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:35 pm

Yup, lots of local stuff here (that backs up to a ghetto-NAS file server, and that in turn backs up to single drives I take to the storage unit occasionally).
smit happens.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Shiunbird » Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:57 am

Everything local. I don't trust anyone else my stuff. At the moment, I still use Apple's and Google's e-mail, but the rest is my own stuff, own calendar server, own storage, contacts sync only locally and there's a full replica at my grandpa's place done through IPSec tunnel.
Soon I hope to start hosting my own e-mail as well.

Ironically, my company has sent me to do Amazon AWS certification. We are going to embrace the clooooooooooooooooooooud.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Y888099 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 5:51 am

I need 40GB for LT's IBIS models and EagleCAD's libraries. They can't stay on a remote machine or cloud because I can't assure of being plugged through a network. e.g. when I am out, using mobile solutions are just too slow and expensive.

EagleCAD on MacOSX is not full compatible with Linux and Windows versions, e.g. importing a legacy library doesn't not work on mac and I don't want to dick around with it. Therefore I moved to PeeeCeee, since buying a mac to have Windows/Linux on it (in order to use EagleCAD) does not make sense.

End of the problem.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Thu Mar 23, 2017 3:42 pm

We are going to embrace the clooooooooooooooooooooud.


No, no, you have it all wrong. You should replace all occurrences of "cloud" with "clown." To wit:

I am storing my win-this-account-or-be-fired presentation in the clown.
We have successfully migrated our confidential salary chart to the clown.
The clown is down, so we can't access any files.
Someone hacked the clown and found my gay porn.

Etc.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:22 pm

Raion-Fox wrote:
pierocks wrote:I choose Apple hardware specifically because I don't have to dick around with it. And as far as "expandability" goes, who stores more than a few dozen gigabytes of data locally anymore? I can't remember the last time I filled up my laptop's SSD. I've got my music collection, and that's about it. Documents/spreadsheets go on google docs, everything else goes to my NAS. Maybe you are editing HD video or something, but then you aren't a huge majority of the Apple user base.


Hey Pierocks, thanks for joining the discussion. You raise an interesting point. While I have a NAS, and several smaller backup devices as well, I, like CommodoreJohn, have games on my local disk. This necessitates either shuffling games around off and on external storage, deleting/redownloading from Steam etc. on a small disk like a MBP (My last had a 256GB SSD, wayy too small for my use) I had to carry around a USB 1TB HDD to hold my stuff. Not to mention MATLAB, Visio, music and other sometimes hugely bulky stuff. I'm also an audiophile and thus store my music mostly lossless. That adds up dude.

The largest reasonable laptop SSD is 2TB. The largest reasonable laptop HDD is 3 or 4 TB. Stop peddling this shit that SSDs are tiny and useless. My MBP has 1TB ssd, I'm sure apple will offer a larger one in the future. Yes, they are more expensive than HDD. Yes, you can just buy a $80 chromebook if cost is that important to you, or use a free computer at the library. I also store some (maybe most) of my music lossless. I backup to my mac pro with spinning rust running time machine server. Where 4-10tb disks are common and cheap.


Raion-Fox wrote:
pierocks wrote:And don't get me started with this user replaceable battery nonsense. I mean, I guess gluing them in less than ideal. But at the end of the day, I've been using Apple laptops since 2002 and I have literally never replaced a single laptop battery in any of them. If making the battery a funky shape allows you to get more in the case, and gluing it in gives the whole assembly better support, then why the hell not. I'd rather have a machine that's more durable, with fewer moving parts, than something I can fully disassemble on a whim. Think about how many times in your life the first step in troubleshooting problems with a computer has been "unseat and reseat all connections." Why not eliminate the possibility of connectors working themselves loose on a portable machine?


So based on your anecdotes then me having to replace batteries in my laptops means I abuse my computers or something? Or the fact that my mother had to go to Apple and they had to replace her rMBP when her battery failed? They had to give her a whole new computer. This is not good. Apple is making disposable hardware for the purpose of peddling their cheap trash at thousands on markup. They don't make money on OS X or iOS since it all comes bundled, unlike how MS has suites of programs and stuff, they have to turn a profit on the hardware thus, and I'm sure a low end Macbook doesn't cost them at their economy of scale more than 4-500 to make.
Apple knows exactly how many users swapped their batteries regularly when that was a feature. Their telemetry tracks battery SNs installed in machines. They also know how many extra batteries they sold for their laptops.

They decided that it would be much more beneficial to make 8+ hour laptop batteries built-in than user-replaceable 4 or 5 hour batteries. Don't have to shutdown to swap, don't have to charge up two batteries again, etc.

Raion-Fox wrote:You may be okay with paying 1,000-2,000 dollars and up for an overpriced, underpowered computer that needs to be replaced when it breaks, no matter what. But I paid just over a grand over a period of a few months for my W530. I can replace the CPU, battery, RAM, drives and so-on without disposing the entire machine and starting over. How is my system not the future and yet Apple is? I know you didn't claim that, but user serviceability will likely always be an aspect of computers that will be in demand. So these are questions to be answered, and man, 10-20 years in the future when someone sees this on archive.org or elsewhere, they'll either agree with me or agree with my detractors. Time will tell.

I have a w520 and the bottlenecks of this machine are very difficult to ignore. First, it is heavy and even with a 9-cell battery only lasts for 3-4 hours. The quadro 2000 graphics can't officially support 4k monitors. I have two running (with minidock +3) but some strangeness happens, and they only run at 30hz. The built-in screen is a joke at 1920x1080. A 15" should be 4k or a minimum of qhd for 2017. The power cord is about the weight and volume of a complete modern laptop. The msata slot is a bottleneck for even SSD's of 2012-era.

I like it for the classic thinkpad keyboard/trackpoint, aesthetic, and build quality. I need a bona-fide windows laptop for running certain CAD application and an old IDE for particular piece of hardware. But comparing it to a modern machine is a bit of a joke. I know the w530 is a year newer but they are basically the same machine.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:46 pm

guardian452 wrote:The largest reasonable laptop SSD is 2TB. The largest reasonable laptop HDD is 3 or 4 TB. Stop peddling this shit that SSDs are tiny and useless. My MBP has 1TB ssd, I'm sure apple will offer a larger one in the future. Yes, they are more expensive than HDD. Yes, you can just buy a $80 chromebook if cost is that important to you, or use a free computer at the library. I also store some (maybe most) of my music lossless. I backup to my mac pro with spinning rust running time machine server. Where 4-10tb disks are common and cheap.


Back in 2012 when my last Mac purchase happened this wasn't the damn case. 256GB was the highest offered by Apple.


Raion-Fox wrote:They decided that it would be much more beneficial to make 8+ hour laptop batteries built-in than user-replaceable 4 or 5 hour batteries. Don't have to shutdown to swap, don't have to charge up two batteries again, etc.


It doesn't make sense that the battery would be longer life by not being user replaceable. That's a fallacy.

Raion-Fox wrote:I have a w520 and the bottlenecks of this machine are very difficult to ignore. First, it is heavy and even with a 9-cell battery only lasts for 3-4 hours. The quadro 2000 graphics can't officially support 4k monitors. I have two running (with minidock +3) but some strangeness happens, and they only run at 30hz. The built-in screen is a joke at 1920x1080. A 15" should be 4k or a minimum of qhd for 2017. The power cord is about the weight and volume of a complete modern laptop. The msata slot is a bottleneck for even SSD's of 2012-era.


The w530 has K1000M graphics and while it doesn't support 4k, I don't need 4k. I have a pair of high-dpi 1080p monitors and 10-bit 1080p hentai anime looks great on them. I will upgrade to 4K eventually but probably continue to use 1900x1080 for most tasks. I don't have the 30hz issue. I also have a generation newer CPU and the top CPU for the Ivy Bridge generation. And it does have chiclet keys but they're actually just as usable as older Thinkpad keyboards in my experience - but then again I actually like the Spectrum and other computers with chiclets (except the PCjr. Fuck the PCjr) I actually haven't installed an msata SSD yet in mine but that's on my eventual to-do. They're not the same computer.
The power brick is heavy but who cares, this isn't something I lug around and whip out at starbucks.

That being said it isn't perfect. On FreeBSD/FoxBSD I can't use the Intel graphics or optimus. I stay locked to the Nvidia. The battery life is around 5-6 hours with my aftermarket battery with light use, 3-4 if I am watching a movie or something.

The fact is, that in early 2013, when this laptop was made, there was not a 3940XM powered Macbook, let alone with all of these features and serviceability.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:57 pm

You can swap *20 and *30 keyboards super easy if you want. No need to justify chicklet superiority.

The battery lasts longer because you aren't giving up all that volume to a second enclosure, connectors, fasterners, bms circuitry, etc. More volume for energy storage.

For one of the vehicles I'm working on we went from 62kwh to 74kwh in slightly less pack volume just by changing the cell packaging. Same chemistry, same chassis space used. Just by eliminating some of the air and plastic between cells.

As for screen DPI... I spend a LOT of time looking at CAD models and drawings, and a lot of time looking at text. The more DPI the better. My screens are almost 200dpi (4k at 24") Text looks pretty good, even windows has great subpixel hinting, but line drawings and especially wireframe/lined models in solidworks you notice the jagged edged s still. I think with current resolution they will hopefully be able to start improving subpixel stuff in cad programs. But you lose the precision which for some people is a concern.

If you are using it to watch movies, especially cartooons, I'm sure 1080 is fine. I spend too much time working when at work and love to shut it off at the end of the day and go home, so I couldn't care less about movies/games on my work computer.

4k is going to be old hat with 5k and higher becoming mainstream. Dell just came out with an 8k screen that mortals can afford around $5k usd (I know 8k has been around but such a display was at least 6 figures until now).


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