The Problem with Apple

Apple hardware/software and related topics.
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guardian452
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:30 pm

Raion-Fox wrote:
guardian452 wrote:Who glued it in, you or your mother ?!?? It's not much more expensive than the 44++ battery I just bought for my X220 ($159) considering there is a service involved I think it's fair.

https://support.apple.com/mac/repair/service


She uses the 2012 Macbook Pro Retina I used to use (This is not replaceable due to being glued, from the factory, by Apple!


Uhhh, the pricing list I linked to has the standard R&R price for all macbook batteries. It's a standard service item.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:35 pm

They told her that they are unable to replace it because the 2012 rMBP is non serviceable for batteries and Apple care for it expired in 2015
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby GIJoe » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 pm

just to add - it's not about eye candy to me, user experience includes the little things - like how well do gestures work, how easily can you make selections, does the thing cope well when used with a wacom instead of a mouse, how does the scrolling behave, are GUI elements consistently placed and sized so you can click them quickly, do you need to use google every time to find some entry in a preference pane and so on. to me OSX is simply better tweaked than the others when it comes to this. it all adds up.
windows isn't too bad but noticeably clunkier. linux GUI's are totally hit and miss. IRIX gave me rage fits when trying to use it with a wacom. :)


anyway, the battery of all those apple laptops should be replaceable, just costs more. e.g. a local shop charges almost 100 euros more to service a retina machine due to all the glue and added difficulty to get inside. they told me they can still fix all aspects like in the previous generation.

i can see on their website that they do offer it for the 2012 15 inch model. you should probably check with third party shops in your area.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:45 pm

GIJoe wrote:just to add - it's not about eye candy to me, user experience includes the little things - like how well do gestures work, how easily can you make selections, does the thing cope well when used with a wacom instead of a mouse, how does the scrolling behave, are GUI elements consistently placed and sized so you can click them quickly, do you need to use google every time to find some entry in a preference pane and so on. to me OSX is simply better tweaked than the others when it comes to this. it all adds up.
windows isn't too bad but noticeably clunkier. linux GUI's are totally hit and miss. IRIX gave me rage fits when trying to use it with a wacom. :)


anyway, the battery of all those apple laptops should be replaceable, just costs more. e.g. a local shop charges almost 100 euros more to service a retina machine due to all the glue and added difficulty to get inside. they told me they can still fix all aspects like in the previous generation.

i can see on their website that they do offer it for the 2012 15 inch model. you should probably check with third party shops in your area.

I wouldn't... go to the apple store, pay the extra few bucks. I don't think apple is as sneaky as lenovo (for example) in terms of 3rd party battery compatibility, but there's no reason why they wouldn't start doing what lenovo does with next year's MacOS update. Especially when the labor involved costs more than the part. Is this FUD? Sure, but not as bad as saying apple won't service their shit. You probably just rubbed the genius the wrong way. Try another one, act as polite and as white as possible, and maybe you'll get help.

I agree it's wrong but apple store 'geniuses' are absolutely the scum-of-the earth IME. Ideally you know at least an assistant manager before you go in and talk to them first.

Or I can send you my set of Wiha pentalobe screwdrivers if you so desire, I have no use for them anymore :D

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:21 pm

My mother has no intention of spending more money on that laptop. They wanted her to buy a new one, and she simply cannot afford it. She will likely use it until it dies or it becomes so unbearably short in battery life that she sells it secondhand.

The fact that Apple has glued rather than clipped it in is hackjob cheapness with only benefits for planned obsolescence.

GUI on Windows 8 and above is actually very consistent in terms of GUI. Try using any X based application on OS X or something ported directly from windows like Pro/E. You will immediately notice issues. From the fact that Apple doesn't have a center button making it difficult in Pro/E to operate to MATLAB being absolute broken shit you are up shits creek without a paddle.

Each OS has GUI issues because it does not belong inside a closed bubble of software. No matter how much Apple pushes Final Cut, if you prefer Premiere or something else you're going to encounter issues, for instance.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby GIJoe » Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:53 pm

actually, one of the reasons given for gluing it all together vs going with screws and clips is to increase stiffness as the machines get thinner.

re: GUI not talking about thirdparty apps, just what's coming with the OS (filemanager, desktop, prefs, et al) or in the case of linux the desktop environment (or whatever you call the whole package with default utilities, e.g. gnome, kde).

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:18 pm

But your argument is invalidated because a base OS is relatively useless by itself.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:45 pm

Raion-Fox wrote:But your argument is invalidated because a base OS is relatively useless by itself.


This is one of my biggest issues I had switching away from the mac, actually. The built in Mail, Safari, Calendar, Contacts, in OS X (MacOS) are all very, very, good. It was difficult to find decent replacements to the point where I actually kept my mac around for several months after getting a new PC.

I don't like the idea of the google services or doing everything through a webbrowser but our company uses google services anyways and they really are better than anybody else I've tried (e.g. thunderbird, mailbird, sylpheed, etc...) They work well in firefox, even, and they integrate well with android.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:09 pm

Zoho works well too.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Trippynet » Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:53 am

GIJoe wrote:actually, one of the reasons given for gluing it all together vs going with screws and clips is to increase stiffness as the machines get thinner.


The main issue I have with this is that many other companies manage to make very slim devices where the batteries are NOT glued in place, and I don't recall seeing any "stiffness" issues with my wife's Samsung Series 9 laptop, or the X1 Carbons I've come across.

I do honestly understand with ultra-slim laptops that the battery is not replaceable without taking the case apart, but I'll never accept gluing a consumable item in place.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby GIJoe » Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:29 am

Raion-Fox wrote:But your argument is invalidated because a base OS is relatively useless by itself.


huh? it's a part one tends to end up interacting with a lot and that glues things together. anyway, i'm not even sure we were talking about the same thing. or even having a discussion. :lol:

Trippynet wrote: I don't recall seeing any "stiffness" issues with my wife's Samsung Series 9 laptop, or the X1 Carbons I've come across.


is that maybe due to a different material-mix used for the case? i know my 2011 15-inch MBP is a little flexy in places already - and that's a porker compared to apple's current retina models.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby guardian452 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:02 am

The reason why apple stopped offering user-replaceable batteries is because (a) you had to remember to swap them out of the machine to keep them both charged up, AFAIK they never offered a standalone charger, (b) at some point laptop batteries lasted long enough for a flight/workday/movie session to the point where it became a non-issue, and (c) hardly anybody ordered a second battery anyways.

So if you're not going to offer user-replaceable batteries, technically the machine must be brought to the store for servicing anyways. Because the battery packs were never cheap, having a bit of extra labor cost to swap out the rare defective battery under warranty was never an issue.

Apple also likes to think that their products are really the cat's ass and if you are one of their users you will bend over (and lube yourself) to buy the new model when it comes out every few months.

The typical savvy apple user is more concerned with getting a refund on the remainder of their applecare warranty when they trade in their old device for a new one after 12 months and still have 1-2 years left of their applecare. They really clever ones are also concerned about selling the old unit before there is too much depreciation. They sure aren't concerned about their products lasting beyond when the new model comes out.
https://www.macworld.com/article/299195 ... funds.html

But complaining you can't afford a $199 service for a $3000+ laptop is a lot like the people that will drop $800+ on an iphone, complain about the cost of $19 charging cables, and fry their device with a $5 knockoff from the gas station.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:51 pm

I could definitely afford that level of service on a $2500 laptop but my mother is not of means to do so.

That is a lot like how my roommate drives a Mercedes (not a new one, mind you. A 2002 S class that he got for $2000 and required a new air suspension system to be fitted) and then people are incredulous when they ask to borrow money and he says no. We replaced the sir suspension in his garage from mostly junkyard parts. Just because the car cost $92k new doesn't mean that he doesn't have business driving it because it isn't the cheapest car to work on.
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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby raubvogel » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:03 am

guardian452 wrote:But complaining you can't afford a $199 service for a $3000+ laptop is a lot like the people that will drop $800+ on an iphone, complain about the cost of $19 charging cables, and fry their device with a $5 knockoff from the gas station.


For some reason that reminds me of Oracle. If you want to pay for Solaris support (I know, I know, they canned it and Sun hardware recently), it is charged as a percentage of the original selling price for the hardware you want to run Solaris on.

About cheap knockoffs, if the charging cable have published specs (IEEE anyone) and the charging cable fries your phone, shame on the cable manufacturer. Kinda like those cheapo AAA batteries that are just a bit smaller and underpowered compared to the standard.

Raion-Fox wrote:I could definitely afford that level of service on a $2500 laptop but my mother is not of means to do so.

That is a lot like how my roommate drives a Mercedes (not a new one, mind you. A 2002 S class that he got for $2000 and required a new air suspension system to be fitted) and then people are incredulous when they ask to borrow money and he says no. We replaced the sir suspension in his garage from mostly junkyard parts. Just because the car cost $92k new doesn't mean that he doesn't have business driving it because it isn't the cheapest car to work on.


You remind me of an article I read recently about rebuilding the original clutch-operated M62 supercharger used in the earlier SLKs. Bottom line is people found out pretty much all the parts you need to do the deed short of teflon recoating the rotors. If there is a will there is a way.

Someone here talked about the $300 ODBII scanners vs the professional ones. Well, OBDII is a published standard... of sorts. Automakers arm twisted the standards agencies so the standard only covers the very basic stuff, allowing you or your trusty inspection station barely enough info to check emissions. Their argument was their engine + environment management system was so complex that it could not be accessible by ODBII, requiring extra protocols that just happened to be proprietary and secretive. The only way to diagnose their cars would be to buy the, as was put here before, the "professional" grade equipment which in plain English means gear made by a company who paid the exorbitant license to the automakers to access their secretive protocol. There is in fact a drive by automakers to make vehicles that can only be either worked at their dealerships or by the repair shops who can afford the needlessly specialized gear. One example is using bolts whose heads are not standard and require an extra fixture to be attached to the part to remove. Before someone claims that is a necessary price to pay to get modern cars, F1 cars tend to be designed to be worked using standard tools including laptops; perhaps F1 cars are technologically comparable to Amish buggies?

Some of us have to deal with sensitive data liek HIPAA. If you use a computer whose drive cannot be removed, unless the Apple store at the corner with its beautiful and brighter-than-thou Gurus or the Apple repair shop is certified to handle this kind of data, a motherboard issue means the device has to be destroyed. Hard drive problems? Destroy computer. Power connector broken? Destroy. Before you think I am blaming Apple, Microsoft sells a laptop whose hard drive is also soldered on; you can find online guides you print and tape to the laptop that have locations you must drill through the laptop's body before trashing it. Companies like Lenovo, with all of its flaws, offer removable hard drives in all but their consumer tablet-style laptops for a reason.

The average user (at least 80%) really does not care about keeping and updating their computer. They really want an appliance that works better than their microwave oven. Like that oven, if it breaks they will just chuck it out without and regards for what data is in it. Knowing that all of their data is automagically going to the cloud so they do not have to think about where and how to store is a godsend. They want convenience and style; knowing what is inside a computer is for overweight white males with skin problems and no social skills who live on the basement of their parents watching Hentai. The average customer wants only to know what is hip and trendy right now, so they can buy it in hope others think their are as cool as their stuff and will like them. They want what they want right now; they are too busy to wait or understand so someone should just tell them what they need to know in sound bites. And, there are a lot of them, enough that you can make a killing by selling lifestyles instead of products. Ask Apple.

From a business standpoint, Apple is brilliant.

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Re: The Problem with Apple

Unread postby shutitalldown » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:42 pm

The Problem with Apple on PowerMac is OpenFirmware. It supports a sort of scripting language, but it's Forth-like: not intuitive like Lua and it makes a part of Yaboot (the first stage is written in OF-Forth) very complex to be written and understood. It's the wrong point from my point of view since it makes things more complex, and I still wonder why they didn't simply port PPCBOOT/UBOOT builtin with a Lua interpreter, instead? :roll:
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