OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

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ClassicHasClass
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OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Sat Oct 24, 2015 8:57 pm

I guess I'm the only one who still writes OpenMotif apps for OS X, or at least the only one that cares, but IST OpenMotif is broken on El Crapitan because of SIP. It expects to write to /usr and you can't do that anymore.

Before you all say "disable rootless protection" it's pretty clear to me Apple's not going to support that forever, and while I think SIP is a good idea executed badly, it's obviously here to stay. But IST doesn't want to make further updates, so I patched their last two releases of OpenMotif to live in /Applications (which is not under SIP) and be linkable from there. You can get it and all the development headers and libraries for 10.4 or 10.5-10.11, PowerPC (natch) or i386.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/openmotif-mac/

There are no other changes other than to rewrite the dylib linking to its new home, and a bit of monkeypatching on one of the dylibs for the new path. If you were using Mosaic-CK or GopherVR and want to update those,

http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/machten/mosaic/
http://www.floodgap.com/software/gophervr/
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

dpeterc
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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby dpeterc » Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:53 pm

Hello from the other person still writing software on Motif (both on Linux and on OS X).
Any particular reason you use IST OpenMotif instead of the ICS
http://sourceforge.net/projects/motif/
as that one works on OS X without modifications.

I am seeing one big regression on El Capitan - some drawing operations (like drawing rectangles) or even simply opening a menu in X/Motif application is horribly slow. You can observe each menu entry as it is drawn, every inefficiency in redraw after expose events. It was fine on previous versions. Something along those lines, but there is no solution.
http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/ticket/2074
Does your application run at same speed as before? Does it use antialiased fonts and PNG RGBA icons? Is it graphically intensive?
Could the problem be related to XFT font caching, which could be failing due to SIP?

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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:16 pm

Mostly because my programs were already using IST and I don't have a reason to switch. I haven't had any of the repaint problems you mention on El Crap (you can try them and see for yourself, though this is a 2014 i7 MBA, so it might be system dependent). However, it doesn't use antialiased fonts, etc.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby jimmer » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:23 am

Oh wow, if I'd start coding Motif on OSX there'd be THREE of us. That's almost a Community :)

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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby dpeterc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:39 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:Mostly because my programs were already using IST and I don't have a reason to switch. I haven't had any of the repaint problems you mention on El Crap (you can try them and see for yourself, though this is a 2014 i7 MBA, so it might be system dependent). However, it doesn't use antialiased fonts, etc.

Wow, tried your Mosaic and was warped in the 90's. Nice packaging, icon and all. It looks so SGI.
On surface yours look to work OK, as interface is relatively basic.
But I have the possibility to try it on Imac retina 27" 2015 with 10.11.1, and Imac 27" 2010 with 10.6.8. The mosaic Motif interface is considerably faster on he old mac. So much so, that if I open it with your default page, and quickly resize the window (using the handle on the bottom right), it can't keep up with the resizes, if I do it quickly. It will keep redrawing itself for a couple of seconds, once I let go. On the old mac it works just fine. And the processor on the old mac is roughly three times slower. The resolution is the same on both computers, in spite of the new retina, since Xquartz does not support retina and displays 2x2 pixels. Not to mention that ATI chip is several generations better.
So there is something sticky in Xquartz / OS X El Capitan which not only eats all the CPU progress in the last 5 years, but makes it also considerably slower.

On the side note - I see you are also modernizing Mosaic with new features, like trying to introduce UTF-8.
You might try XmHTML as shortcut, and get antialiased fonts without much effort.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmhtml/
Of course, it might be almost too modern for Mosaic, defeating its own purpose. So maybe XmHTML could be used as an alternative page renderer.
In my software, XmHTML works on Linux and Mac, both 64 and 32 bits.

dpeterc
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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby dpeterc » Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:15 pm

jimmer wrote:Oh wow, if I'd start coding Motif on OSX there'd be THREE of us. That's almost a Community :)

The X11 experience on OS X is really rudimentary and getting worse, so I expect a large influx of geek tinkerers. The lure of solving the problems nobody cares about is just too big. Not even xperf works. xmag is unable to read pixels from the screen. oclock has pixels of wrong color on top and left. Iconizing application's top window does not iconize children.

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Re: OpenMotif for El Capitan, er, Crapitan (and Mosaic-CK and GopherVR)

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:33 pm

dpeterc wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:Mostly because my programs were already using IST and I don't have a reason to switch. I haven't had any of the repaint problems you mention on El Crap (you can try them and see for yourself, though this is a 2014 i7 MBA, so it might be system dependent). However, it doesn't use antialiased fonts, etc.

Wow, tried your Mosaic and was warped in the 90's. Nice packaging, icon and all. It looks so SGI.
On surface yours look to work OK, as interface is relatively basic.
But I have the possibility to try it on Imac retina 27" 2015 with 10.11.1, and Imac 27" 2010 with 10.6.8. The mosaic Motif interface is considerably faster on he old mac. So much so, that if I open it with your default page, and quickly resize the window (using the handle on the bottom right), it can't keep up with the resizes, if I do it quickly. It will keep redrawing itself for a couple of seconds, once I let go. On the old mac it works just fine. And the processor on the old mac is roughly three times slower. The resolution is the same on both computers, in spite of the new retina, since Xquartz does not support retina and displays 2x2 pixels. Not to mention that ATI chip is several generations better.
So there is something sticky in Xquartz / OS X El Capitan which not only eats all the CPU progress in the last 5 years, but makes it also considerably slower.


Interesting. I'm on my 10.4 iBook, but I'll try that when I get back and compare it against my 10.6.8 system. The 10.4 iBook doesn't render Mosaic-CK quickly, but it's only a 1.33GHz PowerPC G4.

On the side note - I see you are also modernizing Mosaic with new features, like trying to introduce UTF-8.
You might try XmHTML as shortcut, and get antialiased fonts without much effort.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/xmhtml/
Of course, it might be almost too modern for Mosaic, defeating its own purpose. So maybe XmHTML could be used as an alternative page renderer.
In my software, XmHTML works on Linux and Mac, both 64 and 32 bits.


Maybe. That's an interesting idea. Possibly a third choice in there.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...


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