Tim Cook's new way...

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SAQ
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby SAQ » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:30 am

dclough wrote:The market will determine whether his way is "the right way" through the financial success of the company.


For all definitions of "the right way" == "successful in the market".

Note that "successful in the market" is not sufficient to define "the right way", as there are more criteria. As this is (predominantly) engineering and not math or logic you'll be hard pressed to define a "right way" - best to think of it more as a continuum of crappiness with many variables defining a products range (rather than absolute point) on the continuum.
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:54 am

SAQ wrote:Note that "successful in the market" is not sufficient to define "the right way"

It's not sufficient in most cases, but is necessary in some. My thought on this is, how do we define "the right way" without introducing our own personal agenda for the company? I argue that we can't. In the absence of all other definitions of "the right way", I think it's necessary to fall back on a very basic answer like "Whatever makes us more money."

One person's definition of "the right way" for Apple may be to exit the desktop market and focus on mobility. Another person's definition may be to reenter the server market. Yet another person's definition may be to strengthen technical computing and bolster the desktop line. The OP asked a simple question, "is it the right way?", and I think that begets a simple answer - "It depends."

EDIT:
Also, on the note of engineering, I agree that there is no one right way... but there is a "most correct" way which would be the way that best meets your project's goals. hamei seems to disagree with me that the goal of a company should be to make money, but nonetheless, it's an imperative that sits at the core of modern business so it's actually quite fitting.

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby skywriter » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:09 pm

Why is the younger generation so attached to theorizing on subjects that have demonstrable practical outcomes? Are they so detached from reality they can't see what's right in front of their face? Why do people keep insisting that "with the advent of the internet, today's young generation is one of the most informed generation in history"? How does drooling over tech blogs, misquoting Wikipedia articles, reading endless web comics, installing endless windows secuity updates, and recompiling the kernel a substitute for experience? And they have the gall to insist they're right?!?! Where has respect for their elders gone? This thread is one of the sadest examples of what this message board has come to. It used to be a haven from ignorance; now it's spouted as a matter of course. *sigh*
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dclough
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:07 pm

skywriter wrote:Why is the younger generation so attached to theorizing on subjects that have demonstrable practical outcomes?

I could theorize about what side a coin will land on when flipped, but that would be a waste of time because I could just flip one and see. It's instantaneous. What's not instantaneous, however, is making strategic changes to affect the trajectory of a business. Getting an outcome from that takes years. So, us young'ins spending a few hours theorizing is a lot better than spending years testing things out with a "wait and see" attitude.

Plus, sometimes it's fun to play armchair-CEO. I went to business school but didn't go into a management career, so I enjoy opportunities to reflect on things I've learned.

This brings up another important question. Why does it matter what we talk about?

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby skywriter » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:15 pm

Predictably, you've missed the point.
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:20 pm

skywriter wrote:Predictably, you've missed the point.

Your point was? I should assume somebody else is right and I am wrong because they are an "elder"? I should listen blindly to what others say because I've been conscious for a few years less?

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby skywriter » Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:48 am

When you're wrong? Of course, how else do you learn things you have experience with?
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:35 am

Can we get back to how Apple sucks?
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:50 am

skywriter wrote:When you're wrong? Of course, how else do you learn things you have experience with?

And on whose authority am I "wrong" about anything I've said? Would you care to disprove me?
ClassicHasClass wrote:Can we get back to how Apple sucks?

I would love to. Some people, on the other hand, would rather derail this discussion and grunt like bitter old men who are fed up with "all them damn young'ins 'n their fancy book smarts."

Anyway, as I was on-track to say earlier, I think Cook may have an uphill battle ahead of him trying to break through the "What Would Steve Do" culture. I don't think he wants to be Steve 2.0, and he's made it obvious that he isn't going to be.

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby zmttoxics » Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:50 am

I think people running snow leopard shouldn't complain about things they are unfamiliar with. Mountain Lion (and Lion for that matter) are fine updates. If anything, they didn't change enough to keep it exciting. My only complaint lately is quality control is definitely slipping. IOS and iPhone 5 shouldn't have shipped with those bugs (screen flickering and the no service issues), just silly to have to wait for patches. I almost returned the damn thing but I decided to hold out for patches which just finally came.

I really don't care how Tim Cook runs the company as long as the products work as advertised and satisfy my needs.

Linux on the desktop is still abysmal and while that statement is true, my desktop choice will remain with Apple and OSX.
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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:18 pm

zmttoxics wrote:I think people running snow leopard shouldn't complain about things they are unfamiliar with.

Agreed. I put Lion on my old MBP and haven't had any problems or noticed any big changes... like you said, things really haven't changed that much. My wife happens to love it.

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby hamei » Sat Nov 03, 2012 8:41 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:Can we get back to how Apple sucks?

Add Google to the list. I just went looking for "quiet fan replacement Cisco 3660" and what do I get ? 68,496 returns in .2 seconds, every single one a seller of Cisco memory, Cisco FANASSY3660, a bunch of hits for "quite" (Did you mean quite ? No I fucking-A did NOT mean "quite" and if I did then it's my own fucking problem, get your stupid worthless goddamned crap out of my search you nitwits, thank you so much Oh ! Well in that case click this button and we'll remove the references to "quite." Hit button, NO wrong references removed, I am so glad that Google is such an innovative creative asset to modern society. Let's throw out all the furniture making so we can have hi-tech !! Replace real craftsmen with pretentious ignorant dog turds walking around in human costumes, just super.)

Btw, I really appreciate their thoughtfulness in changing the language to Chinese every time I turn around. That is so helpful. And moving me to Hong Kong is good too. I'm too stupid to go there myself, what was I thinking when I purposely typed in google.ca instead of google.hk ?

And oh yeah, the site selling the fan assembly for a Toyota Celica was superb. What an idea ! Maybe I should get the radiator while I'm at it. What an algorithm ! These people are brilliant.

Google is making money hand over fist ! They are successful ! They are wonderful ! They have big profits ! Let's invest ! Let's get rid of some more useless rust-belt industries with low returns so we can have more of this excellent stuff ! We can be a service economy where no one actually knows anything ! (Have you been to an Apple Store lately ? Oh my.)

They are useless dickwads and if the entire society keeps heading in the dclough direction, you can write it off. Where did the Mesa Verde Indians disappear to ? They got google and it was all over ...

dclough wrote:Your point was? I should assume somebody else is right and I am wrong because they are an "elder"? I should listen blindly to what others say because I've been conscious for a few years less?

This was funny. Thanks, dclough. You won't listen to others just because they are "elders", good on ya. That's why you parrot the crap from the Cato Institution, the American Heritage Institution, The Freedom and Apple Pie Institution, the Make The Trains Run On Time by Reducing Corporate Taxes to Zero Institution, the Let Them Eat Cake Institution without a single qualm. Oh yeah, you think for yourself !

Ha. Ha ha ha ha ha.

Even Helen Keller wasn't this blind. Those round things on each side of your nose ? Open them. Your gods have had control of the US for roughly thirty-five years. In that time they have remade the country into a shithole, stolen every loose penny they could find, destroyed the middle class, destroyed democracy, pissed away trillions of dollars on useless wars, plunged the world's economies into a toilet from which they will probably never emerge, made the entire world understand that the US is a menace to humanity .. oh yeah, those are certainly the people I would be looking to for auctorite. Definitely ! Let me tell ya, you are really an independent thinker ! None of that old-fogey bullshit for you !

dclough wrote:The market will determine whether his way is "the right way" through the financial success of the company.

And the world is flat and the moon is made of green cheese and the tooth fairy will be here later tonight to put a quarter under your pillow.

dclough wrote:
hamei wrote:Tim Cook's goal in life is to grab as much money as he can for himself and to hell with the rest of the world. If you don't believe that I have a lovely golden bridge to sell you.

Because you know him and he's personally told you that? Oh, you don't know him, you say?

For once, you happen to be correct. I don't know Tim Cook.

But I do know Tom Perkins. Once upon a time he was an admirable human being. Now he's nothing but a leech and a parasite, pretty much worthless scum. If there weren't so many boot-licking toadies in the US this change might never have happened.

Financialization has turned the United States into a third-rate reproduction of eighteenth-century France. No good can come of this.

dclough wrote:Some people, on the other hand, would rather derail this discussion and grunt like bitter old men who are fed up with "all them damn young'ins 'n their fancy book smarts."

Fancy book smarts ? I wish. If you had ever read a real book then you wouldn't spout the stoopid garbage you do. You can start with Sophocles and work your way to the present. I won't even start on the list, there are too many you've never opened .. but make sure you read Gibbon and Adam Smith and Karl Marx and even Ayn Rand. None of them say what the Cato Instituti0n claims they say. Not a single one.

I'm not complaining about your book smarts. I'm complaining because you and your entire generation don't have any book smarts. All you have is the retarded propaganda you read in Forbes or some Ziff-Davis or Rupert Murdoch rag.

Bitter ? Not really. Pissed off when this crappy "high-tech" shit doesn't work ? I'll admit to that. All my life I've made things that work. It's annoying to watch my country and my society turn to a cesspool. The products your generation creates are garbage, okay ? We created CNC machines, you outsource. We created computers to solve real problems, you have Facebook and Twitter and a million other worthless "technologies" none of which actually function. We pumped billions into basic research to understand the world, you are handing it over to private corporations as a gift because "profits" are all that you can imagine as worthwhile.

It's not bitterness so much as frustration that your generation is so stupid. The history of the world is right in front of you but you piss all your opportunities away on nonsense. It's discouraging. Young 'ins [sic] are a real disappointment. Maybe you need the draft so you can get some perspective on what life is actually about.

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:23 pm

hamei wrote:This was funny. Thanks, dclough. You won't listen to others just because they are "elders", good on ya.

I did not say I wouldn't listen to someone older than me. I will listen to someone older than me if they can prove that they are RIGHT. What I WILL NOT do is sit here and "Yes sir, No sir, as you wish sir" every goddamn thing you and skywriter say because you purport yourselves to be elders. Fuck you if you think I will mindlessly obey everything you say because you're "older", and fuck you if you have a problem with someone younger disagreeing with you on something. Get used to the fact that the world does not revolve around you, you do not hold all the answers, and you are not the smartest person in the room.

Older? Yes. Smarter? Not necessarily.

If you had ever read a real book then you wouldn't spout the stoopid garbage you do. You can start with Sophocles and work your way to the present. I won't even start on the list, there are too many you've never opened .. but make sure you read Gibbon and Adam Smith and Karl Marx and even Ayn Rand. None of them say what the Cato Instituti0n claims they say. Not a single one.

You don't know what I've read. You don't know what I know. I've read the classics. I've studied Plato. One word: Apology. A work entirely based on a society in which people were threatened by the idea of someone being smarter than them. Put simply, they were scared. Scared that there existed something of which they did not know. That someone dared to share an idea counter to theirs. Socrates stood trial for his wisdom, he was persecuted and then prosecuted for challenging the wisdom of those deemed infallible. You make yourself out to be Socrates, but you are not. You are the jury who votes to slay free thought. You are not a poet. You are not a craftsman (lest that give you credibility elsewhere). You are a politician. You are an ignorant prick. As much as you like to refute it, you are a bitter and damaged old man. You don't have to be intimidated by my beliefs. Save your breath for someone else, someone more impressionable who will buy that bullshit you sell in bulk.

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby hamei » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:06 am

Now ^ that was funny :) Thank you !

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Re: Tim Cook's new way...

Unread postby dclough » Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:13 am

hamei wrote:Now ^ that was funny :) Thank you !

Thank you for laughing and raging like a true fool in the face of my every rebuttal, and proving to the world that ageism is alive and well.


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