A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

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alexott
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby alexott » Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:16 am

Modern Apple is crap no one cares about.

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spiroyster
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby spiroyster » Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:12 am

Most modern is crap. And in Apples case, it's gonna get crapper :roll:

...unfortunately, some of us have to care :shock: :(

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:31 am

spiroyster wrote:It wouldn't surprise me if in 10 years or so we will be reminiscing about being able to install fully featured applications on clients (PC's) and run them without phoning home…. Non SaaSy!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Tell that to those of us who still using win32 apps from 15 years ago that need a COM port or the windows networking stack to interface with a wacky CAN/LIN/MODbus or whatever network, or need to use FEA simulation with customer data that we need to maintain control of with our own disks in our own possessions, or need to run solidworks 10 hours a day 5 days a week.

Desktop/notebook CPUs have stagnated and all technology improvements are at the power consumption side for wearables and IOT. Unless there is a demanding new application that is a huge hit I don't see that changing anytime soon. Maybe people will start wanting VR/AR glasses that don't look like a huge helmet with 18 wires coming out, or maybe autonomous driving will become more popular (not that that is really bottlenecked by compute performance anyway ATM, lidar and other sensors need to get better/cheaper first).

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Irinikus
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby Irinikus » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:37 am

As far as home users are concerned, the only applications that truly need extreme compute and graphics performance in the present tense are games, and lets face it, games are still limited by hardware performance. (Not enough of it)

DirectX is a bitch, as it kind of ties gamers to X86 machines running windows.

But that being said, not everyone's into gaming! Therefore your low power options such as ARM processors should be suitable for most normal users.

As far as cloud computing goes, I personally like to have control over my own information, located on my own physical drives.

Lately, security has been a topic of discussion here, and what security will you have if all of your personal work and information is stored on someone else's super computer? (Never store your gold in someone else's vault, its really not a good idea!)
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby spiroyster » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:07 am

guardian452 wrote:Tell that to those of us who still using win32 apps from 15 years ago that need a COM port or the windows networking stack to interface with a wacky CAN/LIN/MODbus or whatever network..

Granted there are specialist cases where you need some old bit of kit/software to interface with some archaic bit of machinery etc...but thats just old :roll: ...and at some point, be it 10 years, 30 years.. it will need upgrading/replacing and I would put money on them not using a 30+ year old interface unless there is some really important reason they have to. If they do then your company would be in the same boat as any company today that still requires use of an sgi machine... and stress of finding compatible replacement parts or service etc.... don't get me wrong, Its a very romantic notion ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it... but there is a reason we don't weave with spinning jennys and looms any more? They still work no?

guardian452 wrote:or need to use FEA simulation with customer data that we need to maintain control of with our own disks in our own possessions

The FEA is a sure candidate for doing remotely. 'the cloud' doesn't have to be on the other side of the planet, it can be at the other side of the office. If there is a requirement for a closed network, then this would be no different to how current closed network lic's and software is deployed... probably still dongles, specially compiled versions (lic removed) or inhouse development, but people that require this are not in the majority... and software houses like to sell to the majority, or whack the price right up for a bespoke customer... dems the rules of capitalist nature.

If you don't embrace... then you will loose out to your competitors who do, and at the flick of a switch, they will be able to utilise 10x your capacity one month, and then not the next (on demand services, pay for what you need)... all the time you cannot meet that the first month and then have overkill the second month... all this time you'll be paying maintenance and electrical costs for running your large array of power horses... there would be very few cases when having your own would be justified certainly. Since the world seems to be leaning towards efficiency, not every one of the engineers that you work with requires every CPU cycle of the hardware you have all the time.... if they do, you are under resourced? If they don't, you are over resourced. Meanwhile a small two-(wo)man team operating from a small office in shared building can use services that you in your wildest dreams wouldn't be able to host. Your competitor would have been able to achieve what you couldn't, and undercut your price because of reduced overheads of not attempting/having to host a wasted/then overkill workload.


guardian452 wrote:or need to run solidworks 10 hours a day 5 days a week.

...well the 'cloud' would be running 24hrs a day 365 days of the year, any downtime, there would be a group of dedicated engineers on call to return you to normal service ASAP. It would probably be quicker than your IT guy/gal coming in to fix it, or waiting for an out of town IT guy/gal to come from wherever... and fix it (if they do lets hope they have the right spares that are needed :shock:).

I know it all sounds Orwellian, and I don't like it as much as the next person... but its the way the world is going. There will be luddites who continue to work the same way perhaps for the next 50 years...they will be able to continue because of their niche, but the status quo will be different.... at some point people will have to get with the cloud program... unless of course there is some monumental fuckup with it which completely knocks the worlds confidence (over what they can achieve from it) and we all close up.

Of course this is just my opinion, but its based on observation and personal experience in my profession. Next couple of years there will be a massive shift imo. This stuff has been all the talk for a number of years but like anything some people need to be guinea pigs with it (and sometimes these technologies take time to mature, even during development phase)... the guinea pigs do well...the sheep follow...albeit eventually... the final x percentile of sheep being mauled by the predators following, starving because they were at the back when the flock reached the fresh pasture... ain't nature a bitch. This is already happened, we are starting to have the tech and now the big players are starting to embrace and will roll out their own and ram it down our throats.... you can run from it, but only for so long... :cry:

Irinikus wrote:DirectX is a bitch, as it kind of ties gamers to X86 machines running windows.
No need to have your own DirectX, when Amazon can lend you theirs...for a price of course o.0
https://blog.parsecgaming.com/descripti ... 738dcc3842

besides... Vulkan ftw!

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby Irinikus » Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:41 am

I understand what you are saying, but for many gamers, including myself, the hobby of gaming also includes the interest in building up the hardware associated with gaming. This may seem crazy, but it's reality.

You just have to note the amount of views that YouTube channels such as "Linus Tech Tips" get in order for you to gauge the interest in gaming hardware. (it's huge)

For people who are happy to play games on consoles, this is a perfect service, as they are not considered to be gaming hobbyists and hardware doesn't matter to them.

You can look at building up a gaming rig in the same way as someone building up as street rod or a chopper motor cycle, it makes absolutely no sense, but it's fun. :D
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby theinonen » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:06 pm

Irinikus wrote:You can look at building up a gaming rig in the same way as someone building up as street rod or a chopper motor cycle, it makes absolutely no sense, but it's fun. :D


I find putting PC-systems together quite boring these days as there is not much of choice for the parts anymore. Everything is more or less the same from just the couple manufacturers, and instead of building something you are really just assembling existing parts together.

Also for me the games of today are not really fun to play or interesting and once in a while I look for some decent RPG or strategy games from the Steam, but there is nothing worth playing or paying for. Actually my MSX2+ and many ZX Spectrums get far more play time than my PC or consoles combined.

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:27 pm

​Not really, our splatoon clan has a few competitive members (e.g. play for $$$) and it runs on nintendo. We also play MK8, smash, and some of us play ut2004 which although a PC game it attracts more mature audiences vs. the teens and 20-somethings screaming about in overwatch and whatever the latest zombie or war shooter is. Maybe UT players are just different?

The problem with playing PC games is you have to play with and talk to the sort of people that want to sit around and play PC games :shock: And you have to play PC games which barring a few gems over the last decade, wouldn't be missing much.

People that are building "high end" PCs these days aren't playing games with them. IME gamers buy a mid range laptop and can play the latest and greatest. I mean, you're getting a high end intel quad core, FHD screen, and gtx1050 for $699 from dell these days- $500 or less if you wait for a sale. There isn't a single title out now that that machine can't run like a hot knife through butter.

If you're doing a highend rig you have special needs (mining, 4k video edit, CAE, etc).

Actually my MSX2+ and many ZX Spectrums get far more play time than my PC or consoles combined.
I still play my PS2 and SNES on the regular... newer games aren't any better, they're just... newer.

As for scaling up for FEA, we use a firm in town that is one of the most highly regarded in the automotive industry, and have been consistently recommended by several others and I say, “yeah we use them already”, they are still using pre-siemens I-DEAS on basic PC workstations, yet their output is top notch.

When they’re doing an analysis and the liability for wrong answers could be several millions, having the right people that know what they are doing with the tools they have is much much more important than being able to sign up for an amazon account.

I could get into a seat of SW simulation for under $15k, it would pay for itself after two or three jobs. I’m not hiring a professional engineer to pay for their tools. I want their expertise and I want them to accept liability that if they say a critical part isn’t going to break, then it isn’t going to break!

edit: merged double posts.
Last edited by guardian452 on Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby Irinikus » Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:42 pm

I agree with you that most games today are complete garbage.

I am into only into extremely well produced games which have a story line. If it doesn’t have a story line, then I’m not interested. (Good RPG’s and FPS’s).

Notable games for me since 2006 were:

Fear 1&2 (3 was garbage)
The dark messiah.
The Stalker series.
The Fallout series.
The Assasans Creed series (up until revolutions) now they are just milking it!
The Mass Effect series.
Crisis (only the first one)
The Dragon Age series.
The Witcher series.
The Metro series.
Rage.
Diablo III.
I do play The Lord Of The Rings Online (haven’t played in a while so character is still at level 105).

I might have missed a few, but those are the games that I’ve enjoyed over the last 10 or so years.

I don’t go out and buy games often, but when I do, I only want to experience them at absolute max settings at a resolution of 2560 by 1440 (not too much to ask), hence my interest in gaming hardware. (I don’t want any compromise at all, it must be played “The Way it’s Meant to be Played” to quote NVIDIA)

When I first built my current gaming rig, back in 2010, it was originally fitted with two HD 5970 Black editions (4 GPU's) and, was an absolute disaster if you look at it from a price vs performance ratio, as micro stutter's a bitch, even with a dual SLI setup.

From there it was run as various dual GPU setups including: The Asus Ares, GTX 590, GTX690 up until I fitted the Titan X, as you couldn't drive the Apple Cinema Display at max settings with anything less than two GPU's up until that point. (The Titan X just manages to do it and has nothing left in reserve!)

After having experienced micro stutter for years, it's absence with the Titan X has really opened my eyes. I don't want to run a multiple GPU setup again, if I can help it, as it really takes from the gaming experience. (Flickering water and the like)

That being said, it will take quite a few generations of GPU to get to the point where you will be able to drive a 4K let alone an 8K screen at a performance level that pleases me with a single GPU.
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby Irinikus » Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:51 am

theinonen wrote:I find putting PC-systems together quite boring these days as there is not much of choice for the parts anymore. Everything is more or less the same from just the couple manufacturers, and instead of building something you are really just assembling existing parts together.


The problem that we sit with here is one of economics, as no one in their right mind is going to buy an underperforming system from you if they can get a better performing system for the same amount of expenditure from someone else. (This leads to companies going under, and no company is immune, just look at what happened to SGI!)

You find that most of the surviving computer companies of today are only surviving due to the fact that they have diversified into other product lines, in order to carry them when they drop the ball. (AMD's acquisition of ATI for example.)

As time passes, you will have less and less options available to you, as this is a very unforgiving (cut-throat) market, in which, if you fall behind, your gone!

My bet is that we will all ultimately end up by using IBM machines in the future, as they have been rather clever in their approach to the market. (They are also busy developing quantum machines)
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby Krokodil » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:14 am

Not interested in that cloud computing stuff. I'm not going to pay someone to host my files, or rent computer time.

No matter what they do, there will always be a way for people to have their own computers, even if it's just a Raspberry PI, or something like that and I intend to continue to do so, for the rest of my time on this earth. I'll do it even if I have to pay several thousand dollars for my own machine.

With the world becoming ever more unstable with each passing year, it seems very irresponsible to put up systems that depend on an internet connection to work.
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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby squire » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:49 pm

Krokodil wrote:With the world becoming ever more unstable with each passing year, it seems very irresponsible to put up systems that depend on an internet connection to work.

Case in point: apparently some perps intentionally severed an optical communications cable from Vodafone in Berlin today, leaving at least 40.000 customers without TV, phone or internet unless they had alternate routes of access. So much for the cloud business.

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby guardian452 » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:11 pm

I was thinking more of the amazon failure last year that wiped out millions of IoT devices and all sorts of different services, but your example is good too. We have an expensive fiber business service at our shop and my cellphone tether is much more reliable (and faster, and unlimited).


Aaahh, IoT... the “S” stands for security ;)

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Re: A Guide on Your Options for non-x86 Computers (2017)

Unread postby spiroyster » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:02 am

Y2K.jpg

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B6ranXhIIAETltW.png (321.74 KiB) Viewed 324 times

If we didn't learn then, I don't think we are going to learn anytime soon :roll:


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