I'm making my own form of BSD

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Raion-Fox
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I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:37 pm

Hey guys,

It's the user-formerly-known-as TBF here, and I'm dropping in to tell you about my new project I'm working on.

FoxBSD - a fork of FreeBSD 11.

Some design goals/changes on the roadmap include:

Slimming down the codebase, getting rid of all 32-bit architecture support, Kerberos (It's a mess), IPFilter, IPFW, PAM
Switching to Xenocara, which will be included in BASE as an optional package - this also necessitates a switch to BSD-Authentication, hence the reason PAM is getting binned out of base.
Update the PF firewall code to match OpenBSD's
Include CDE (lgpl) and i3wm (bsdl) as optional base packages (as part of Xenocara)
Adding NetBSD's WAPBL code to UFS, deprecate Soft-Updates as soon as that code is merged and up to standard
Add HardenedBSD's ASLR code, PIE, mprotect and Ptrace hardening
Ax OpenSSL and adopt LibreSSL as a default
Eventually port HAMMER2 once the code is stable and deprecate ZFS due to it's incompatible licensing - also port it's reimplemented LVM
Improve the portability of the jails and BHYVE code, work with the OpenBSD, NetBSD and DragonFlyBSD project to get the code up to their standard
Add Wayland into base as soon as the FreeBSD port of Wayland is stable and running - allow Xenocara and Wayland to coexist on the same system.
Create sane defaults for ssh, pf, ng

Adopt the PCC project (Eventually) and make it into a viable alternative to LLVM/clang (which may soon go Apache2... gross)
Port portions of the FoxBSD userland/environment such as devd to the other BSDs, and to Linux if the demand arises

The site for the project will be http://projectkitsune.com/foxbsd.html
The project's source control will be handled through Mercurial.

The general target market for this is two areas:

Server admins who want a more traditional System V-style BSD - it will diverge from the FreeBSD codebase in time and begin to take inspiration from the System V UNIXes where applicable.

Desktop users fed up with the shortcomings of Linux desktops, those wanting a more traditional UNIX desktop, those who are looking for an escape from Windows or MacOS.

The target platforms are:
X64/AMD64
ARM64
POWER64/PPC64

Some notes:

I do not plan to merge patches or ports for dbus, consolekit/logind, polkit or any applications requiring these. I am giving up on Linux and Linux-centric desktop environments. If the need arises, maybe there can be a discussion about native tools being rolled that can replace these tools. The ports tree, once I get the base system in order, will initially use the freebsd ports tree with custom make.conf, until I get to the point where it's feasible to make a port overlay.

I will be adding more tools into base, among the ones I'm going to add to all base installs include:
tmux (with a specialized default config file)
vim (ditto on config file)
zsh (for those who want a more featureful shell than tcsh)

For server installs:
nginx
nsd/unbound

But to be honest, I'm just a single person working on this currently, and if the project's design goals interest you, please contribute what you can in terms of ideas, bug reports and so-on. I don't need money, more than anything just knowing I'm serving a niche is enough to drive me to work on it more.
Last edited by Raion-Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Krokodil » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:25 pm

I was reading this and the initials didn't stand out to me right away.

You know this sounds like TeamBlackFox? Oh, wait, it is. :)

I like the sound of what you are proposing and I will be following it and perhaps sending some money in time.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:14 pm

I don't need your money yet, save it for when there's some results. Right now I'm currently setting up a basic HTML page for Project Kitsune, then it's gonna be switched to Pelican after I convert the HTML style I'm using over to a usable Pelican theme. After that I'll make up a page for Project Kitsune. First thing on my to-do list as far as the project goes is to get the fossil server up and running, clone the FreeBSD source tree and then start stripping out the code we don't need while not breaking anything - a delicate process. Really the first release will be pretty simple:

A working x64/amd64 build with the majority of the code stripped out (sans PAM, since I still need to familiarize myself with the BSD Authentication framework) that I'm promising above. LibreSSL and the custom make.conf will be setup. Basic documentation will be created for installation. All visible labeling will be changed to FoxBSD from FreeBSD. Sane defaults will be included as well as the stable versions tmux, nginx, vim, zsh , nsd/unbound will be synched into the source tree and be in place under /usr prefix. I also plan to see how much I can fuck with bsdinstall to make it work for my use case, or failing that, just write out a manual install guide for the user.

Everything else will trickle in - I suspect the merging of HardenedBSD's patches will be relatively painless. Then will probably come BSD auth replacing PAM, and with it Xenocara since it's a dependency. From there, the difficulty of everything depends on the politics that will be involved with interaction from the other BSD projects. In order to show goodwill and that we aren't freeloading entirely, I suspect the best way will be to trade code and make our pieces they're interested in merging more portable in exchange for their assistance with our codebase.

As far as another goal I forgot to mention:

Auditing will be improved. I will make it a priority to audit the codebase. I think stripping out unnecessary code will go a long way to making this feasible.

As for why I am doing this, it's simple. There's a huge amount of users in the FreeBSD community who are wanting to 'catch up to Linux' and adopt Launchd and other Apple-isms. I feel this compromises the FreeBSD project's integrity. We're adopting the following policy towards projects like GNOME, KDE, and other software projects:

"If you want to play into RedHat's hand and let them take over the Linux community and lock the BSDs out, fine by us. We don't need you."
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Krokodil » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:41 pm

Sounds good. I like it so far. I'm glad you are starting up, been waiting to see if anything ever came of it. It is absolution.

Raion-Fox wrote:As for why I am doing this, it's simple. There's a huge amount of users in the FreeBSD community who are wanting to 'catch up to Linux' and adopt Launchd and other Apple-isms. I feel this compromises the FreeBSD project's integrity. We're adopting the following policy towards projects like GNOME, KDE, and other software projects:

"If you want to play into RedHat's hand and let them take over the Linux community and lock the BSDs out, fine by us. We don't need you."


Yeah, I've been watching the growing toxic influx for the past 3 years there myself. Everytime I go to the forum it seems to be ever more obvious where things are headed. I've been acutely aware since 2013 that a time was coming where I would have to say goodbye to FreeBSD. We're not there quite yet. But I am happy to see the rise of a sensible alternative and a future migration path.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:16 pm

Update:

We have IRC now. #foxbsd on irc.rizon.net. Join me for discussion of FoxBSD

I've also created the first FAQ page, patterned after the OpenBSD FAQ. This will be our 'handbook' of sorts - but I plan to also eventually create a wiki.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby miod » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:16 pm

Raion-Fox wrote:Adding NetBSD's WAPBL code to UFS, deprecate Soft-Updates as soon as that code is merged and up to standard

This doesn't make sense. FreeBSD's UFS already has journalling. Why replace it with something of inferior quality?
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Y888099 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:14 am

so, Raion-Fox =?= TeamBlackFox

~ ~ ~

targets, I see PowerPC64. PPC7xx/PPC74xx means PowerPC 32bit.
PowerPC64 != PowerPC
So I get a question in my mind though, strange though, but it must be asked:
will also PowerBook-G3 and G4 be added in the supported list?
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby guardian452 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:42 am

As for why I am doing this, it's simple. There's a huge amount of users in the FreeBSD community who are wanting to 'catch up to Linux' and adopt Launchd and other Apple-isms. I feel this compromises the FreeBSD project's integrity. We're adopting the following policy towards projects like GNOME, KDE, and other software projects:

"If you want to play into RedHat's hand and let them take over the Linux community and lock the BSDs out, fine by us. We don't need you."


How does such a project compare to OpenBSD? I have a passing interest in OpenBSD, have used it with good results, never used FreeBSD even though I know it's more popular.

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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby tingo » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:44 am

Wow, it seems you have put yourself up for a very large project here! Best of luck with it!

Raion-Fox wrote:As for why I am doing this, it's simple. There's a huge amount of users in the FreeBSD community who are wanting to 'catch up to Linux' and adopt Launchd and other Apple-isms.


Personally, I think you overestimating the number of users who wants this. Granted, there are some newcomers that voice such opinions, but they tend to go away as soon as they understand that they don't have a large number of people backing their ideas. FWIW, I don't consider such people FreeBSD users - they have probably only installed FreeBSD less than a dozen times, and probably haven't used it as a main system for more than a few months.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:30 am

miod wrote:This doesn't make sense. FreeBSD's UFS already has journalling. Why replace it with something of inferior quality?


To be clear I will not be replacing the journaling in UFS with WAPBL - WAPBL as implemented by NetBSD will be an optional component - either way we are a long way from that being on the block. However, soft-updates are inferior to log structuring for solid state media performance. The idea is to offer it as the SSD option instead of soft updates which is a complex and difficult to expand upon piece of code.

guardian452 wrote:How does such a project compare to OpenBSD? I have a passing interest in OpenBSD, have used it with good results, never used FreeBSD even though I know it's more popular.


In the context of FoxBSD, we're taking more pages from the OpenBSD playbook - but we differ in a number of ways:

We have nvidia support through nvidia's binary driver. They do not.
We have linux emulation. They do not.
We are targeting only modern 64-bit architectures. They are not.
We have potentially better performance because their SMP is mostly through giant locking (One core in the kernel land)
We are pulling people from the FreeBSD project primarily - as they are whom we are catering to.

Y888099 wrote:will also PowerBook-G3 and G4 be added in the supported list?


The only Apple product that will be supported in the PowerPC lineup will be the G5 powered machines as G3 and G4 systems are PowerPC32. For the first release, however, I won't be building anything other than amd64 targets and the ARM and POWER code will be removed temporarily until I can remove what is necessary to remove.

tingo wrote:Personally, I think you overestimating the number of users who wants this. Granted, there are some newcomers that voice such opinions, but they tend to go away as soon as they understand that they don't have a large number of people backing their ideas. FWIW, I don't consider such people FreeBSD users - they have probably only installed FreeBSD less than a dozen times, and probably haven't used it as a main system for more than a few months.


Jordan Hubbard is one of them and everytime he opens his fat mouth I think he snorted Adderall. I don't like the guy or his suggestions for FreeBSD.


Also, for the record I built a FreeBSD kernel last night successfully after removing the kernel module code for ipfilter, ipfw and kerberos. One target down
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Krokodil » Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:11 am

tingo wrote:
Personally, I think you overestimating the number of users who wants this. Granted, there are some newcomers that voice such opinions, but they tend to go away as soon as they understand that they don't have a large number of people backing their ideas. FWIW, I don't consider such people FreeBSD users - they have probably only installed FreeBSD less than a dozen times, and probably haven't used it as a main system for more than a few months.


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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Shiunbird » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:34 am

Are you going for ppc64el as well?

If you are targeting ppc64 with Altivec, guys from the PowerPC notebook project will be more than glad to hear about your efforts.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:41 am

Shiunbird wrote:Are you going for ppc64el as well?

If you are targeting ppc64 with Altivec, guys from the PowerPC notebook project will be more than glad to hear about your efforts.


POWER64el should cover any PowerPC CPUs as well - but it's a low priority for the time being. The first major release of foxbsd will probably be amd64 only, then we'll start bringing ARM64 code back, and then POWER once we get some hardware to test. The POWER releases will be primarily big-endian at first, until we get sufficient POWER8 and up hardware to test and run el code from.

Update: Removed release and build support from build system for everything except amd64 and i386 - gotta carefully remove the i386 support without buggering amd64 builds. This doesn't remove all the code from the system that supports these, unfortunately. Just pre-eliminary for it. Eventually, I'll start to spring clean and remove the old code that isn't necessary but for now, I'm focusing on Alpha 1 release targets. Testing kernels and worlds is what I'm focusing on. Once everything for Alpha 1 has been yanked that needs to come out, I'll start adding the programs promised into base.

Update 2: The site has a bunch of new pages. Check it out at http://projectkitsune.com/foxbsd.html. Some formatting issues will be corrected either tomorrow or the next day, I know those blue links probably are painful to read, I'm sorry.

Furthermore, you can read a bit into the hassles of fossil that I faced and finally decided "Fuck I'm going to use Mercurial" http://projectkitsune.com/dev/index.html

To clarify - Project Kitsune is an overarching project of which FoxBSD is a major, current part. Other projects will be added in time, including games, applications and the like.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:36 pm

https://bitbucket.org/projectkitsune/foxbsd-base/

This is the home of the code for the time being until I manage to get hgweb working properly.
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Re: I'm making my own form of BSD

Unread postby dexter1 » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:40 pm

Raion-Fox wrote:This is the home of the code for the time being until I manage to get hgweb working properly.

If i may suggest an alternative: consider mercurial-server from lshift.

That mercurial server system is set up against ssh public key infrastructure, which in itself is maintained via a hgadmin repository with hooks. Notify hooks can also be installed and work. Pidgin development is using that setup and i have introduced it to our mechanics group for code-development, but also for some projects and papers.

It's basically a very low-key BitBucket system :)
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