Turning your back on windows

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foetz
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby foetz » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:57 am

wenp wrote:I finally admitted that it was never going to happen, due to the relatively poor quality of Linux desktop applications.

osx. much nicer than windows but unlike linux it has proper software support and the full unix toolset.

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby wenp » Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:51 am

foetz wrote:osx. much nicer than windows but unlike linux it has proper software support and the full unix toolset.

About every other year, I give serious consideration to OS X. The main things that put me off are:
1. Small selection of application software.
2. Small selection of supported hardware.
3. Major compatibility breakage between versions.
4. Having to deal with a mix of case-sensitive (UFS) and case-insensitive (HFS+) file systems.
5. Much is made of the Unix foundations, but actually X11 is very unstable and buggy, there are much fewer ports than for Linux/FreeBSD, and porting even just CLI applications from Unix/Linux is not trivial.
6. The development environment and community are extremely insular, not supportive of cross-platform development.

I once asked online about setting up a Mac without the desktop environment, just a terminal interface. The responses were...colorful.

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:19 am

tomvos wrote:Don't let the fear mongering of the IT news sites get the best of you. Yes, your next OS will monitor your behaviour.

[...]

So, I think it's OK to monitor, but there have to be strict guidelines what is deemed to be acceptable usage of monitored data. You can't stop the future from unravelling, but you can try to nudge it into the direction you seem to prefer.

Fuck that noise. If I buy a computer, it is supposed to do what I tell it to do, not phone home and report on my activities to Central Control. No amount of soft-pedaling and fuzzy positive Futurist blabbering will change the fact that it should not be doing that.
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby tomvos » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:17 am

commodorejohn wrote:If I buy a computer, it is supposed to do what I tell it to do, not phone home and report on my activities to Central Control. No amount of soft-pedaling and fuzzy positive Futurist blabbering will change the fact that it should not be doing that.


OK, you're right. In an ideal world where every computer user actually knows what he is doing, this should be the default behaviour.

But take a look around you. The computer has changed. It's no longer the thing sitting on your desk. It's your mobile phone. In the western countries, we often use computers and phones. In other countries the phone is the first and only computer people use. Their computer is a device that is always on and always connected.
And in order to work in a SS7 or LTE network, the device needs to communicate all the time. Just the basic functionality results in data the network carriers can use to profile you. And every internet service you use will have some endpoint on some server which may track you in more or less obvious ways.

The world has changed and monitoring turned out to be the new "normal".
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby foetz » Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:51 am

wenp wrote:
foetz wrote:osx. much nicer than windows but unlike linux it has proper software support and the full unix toolset.

About every other year, I give serious consideration to OS X. The main things that put me off are:
1. Small selection of application software.

no, in fact there's a bunch of nice things that only exist for osx. and some of the major companies (e.g. adobe and avid) prefer osx.

2. Small selection of supported hardware.

of course as it always is for (more or less) proprietary systems. which is also one of the reasons why they're better :)

3. Major compatibility breakage between versions.

can't confirm that.

4. Having to deal with a mix of case-sensitive (UFS) and case-insensitive (HFS+) file systems.

ufs?

5. Much is made of the Unix foundations, but actually X11 is very unstable and buggy

x11 isn't part of osx at all but you can have it as an additional app.

there are much fewer ports than for Linux/FreeBSD, and porting even just CLI applications from Unix/Linux is not trivial.

that kinda stuff is not what you're looking for when using osx and also the very things you said would be of poor quality. on osx you don't need to fall back to half-ass beta stuff from sourceforge or github because for most things there's a proper and often osx specific app available.

6. The development environment and community are extremely insular, not supportive of cross-platform development.

that depends on what you use. either way i wouldn't say xcode is more "insular" than visual c and linux doesn't have something like that at all.
doesn't matter tho because you always have the full unix dev environment so in any case you have at least as much as you have on linux. whatever else xcode comes with in addition is a bonus.

I once asked online about setting up a Mac without the desktop environment, just a terminal interface. The responses were...colorful.

sure, if you want that you're better off with a classic unix or linux.

tomvos wrote:In an ideal world where every computer user actually knows what he is doing, this should be the default behaviour.

no, this has to be the default behavior no matter how skilled the user is. there's absolutely no excuse for built-in surveillance.

And in order to work in a SS7 or LTE network, the device needs to communicate all the time. Just the basic functionality results in data the network carriers can use to profile you. And every internet service you use will have some endpoint on some server which may track you in more or less obvious ways.

of course, for mobile devices that's true but not for "real" computers and it also doesn't mean that every program and even the os itself has to record everything you do and send that to hq.

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Jul 30, 2016 11:16 am

foetz wrote:of course, for mobile devices that's true but not for "real" computers and it also doesn't mean that every program and even the os itself has to record everything you do and send that to hq.

This, this, this. It is true that in order to use a cell phone you have to accept that it's going to be trackable, but that is not even remotely the same thing as spying on your computer usage and phoning home with it. (And also, you can, y'know, turn it off.)
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby Trippynet » Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:11 am

I also find it especially creepy when MS starts reporting how many hours of use Windows 10 has seen, and how many photos have been viewed with it, and how many web pages people have visited with Edge, etc. etc. Not sure if it's just me, but I don't want Microsoft to be logging and counting every single program I use, every file I open, every web page I visit, every hour of use my PC gets.

What I do with my computers is my business. And like I say, even if you turn the tracking off, it still phones home hundreds of times an hour which according to the privacy settings, it shouldn't be doing. That's utterly unacceptable in my opinion, and like I say, is one of many reasons why Windows 10 will never be seeing the light of day on any computer I own.
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby uunix » Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:17 am

And another thing.. on the server side of things.. I don't want servers updating and rebooting without my permission and all are set to download and notify.. but guess what.. The still do it anyway.. these are production servers! FSCKing M$!
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby robespierre » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:19 pm

foetz wrote:
wenp wrote:1. Small selection of application software.

no, in fact there's a bunch of nice things that only exist for osx. and some of the major companies (e.g. adobe and avid) prefer osx.

Yet Photoshop always performs better on Windows. Adobe left the farm a long time ago.

2. Small selection of supported hardware.

of course as it always is for (more or less) proprietary systems. which is also one of the reasons why they're better :)

Unfortunately that small catalog of proprietary hardware is no longer particularly well-engineered. The list of defects that Apple won't acknowledge is bigger now than ever before. (How many decades did they have a race condition in the volume button handler that scrambled the balance setting?)

3. Major compatibility breakage between versions.

can't confirm that.

It depends on what your applications use. Carbon APIs, for example, not so well supported anymore. There are a lot of other examples, including incompatible implementations of basic methods when "sandboxing" is used, and changes in how Grand Central Dispatch worked. Since the OS is driven by marketing objectives, it has considerable API churn.

4. Having to deal with a mix of case-sensitive (UFS) and case-insensitive (HFS+) file systems.

ufs?

UFS was one of the filesystems you could create (mkfs_ufs). I think it was compatible with FreeBSD UFS. Support was removed several versions ago: I don't think anybody used it much at all past X Server 1.0. (Although BSD 4.3 LFS still seems to be there).

Case insensitivity is basically useless, and HFS+ has always supported case-sensitive filesystems (called HFSX). Whether anything will go wrong if you use it is an unknown though because it receives less testing.

It's important to note that you always have to deal with a mix of case-insensitive filesystems if you support Windows SMB mounting, in any OS.

5. Much is made of the Unix foundations, but actually X11 is very unstable and buggy

x11 isn't part of osx at all but you can have it as an additional app.

What does X11 have to do with Unix, let alone "Unix foundations"?!

there are much fewer ports than for Linux/FreeBSD, and porting even just CLI applications from Unix/Linux is not trivial.

that kinda stuff is not what you're looking for when using osx and also the very things you said would be of poor quality. on osx you don't need to fall back to half-ass beta stuff from sourceforge or github because for most things there's a proper and often osx specific app available.

Doesn't the meaning of "most things" depend on the type of work you do? How many OSX specific web server apps are there?

6. The development environment and community are extremely insular, not supportive of cross-platform development.

that depends on what you use. either way i wouldn't say xcode is more "insular" than visual c and linux doesn't have something like that at all.
doesn't matter tho because you always have the full unix dev environment so in any case you have at least as much as you have on linux. whatever else xcode comes with in addition is a bonus.

A considerable annoyance is that Interface Builder no longer comes as a separate tool, because you need to use it to create native Cocoa GUIs. You're locked into using Apples chosen IDE whether you have any use for it or not. You even have to use it to enable the "command line tools"!

I once asked online about setting up a Mac without the desktop environment, just a terminal interface. The responses were...colorful.

sure, if you want that you're better off with a classic unix or linux.

You can (or could around 10.4, not checked since) do just about anything CLI from the standalone prompt. Only thing you're really missing is virtual consoles. I don't think there's anything like gpm.

----
no, this has to be the default behavior no matter how skilled the user is. there's absolutely no excuse for built-in surveillance.

There's a trend nowadays that IT companies want to encourage de-skilling of their users because it produces greater dependence. The more proprietary features that can be turned into crutches because users never learned how things work, the more power companies have.

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby foetz » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:18 pm

robespierre wrote:Yet Photoshop always performs better on Windows. Adobe left the farm a long time ago.

adobe was just one example and i disagree. i never had performance issues with the osx version but i did have a lot of trouble with the windows version (the usual windows quirks)

Unfortunately that small catalog of proprietary hardware is no longer particularly well-engineered.

ah that was a misunderstanding. i didn't cheer for apple hardware but osx.

UFS was one of the filesystems you could create (mkfs_ufs). I think it was compatible with FreeBSD UFS. Support was removed several versions ago: I don't think anybody used it much at all past X Server 1.0. (Although BSD 4.3 LFS still seems to be there).

yeah i'm aware of ufs. what i meant was how does that affect you? would you still need ufs on osx in some way?

What does X11 have to do with Unix, let alone "Unix foundations"?!

no idea, you brought it up :P

Doesn't the meaning of "most things" depend on the type of work you do? How many OSX specific web server apps are there?

oh sure, forget about running osx as a server. if you're looking for a server then this whole thread is actually pointless.

A considerable annoyance is that Interface Builder no longer comes as a separate tool, because you need to use it to create native Cocoa GUIs.

yeah but you were talking about cross-platform stuff so this one doesn't matter.


i have to ask tho, do you actually know what you want? :P
you're partially contradicting your own, earlier statements. it rather seems like you're looking for reasons not to use osx instead of making a pragmatic approach as in comparing what you wanna do and what's available for that.
don't get me wrong, whatever you wanna use is your choice of course but this way a discussion is quite pointless.
----
There's a trend nowadays that IT companies want to encourage de-skilling of their users because it produces greater dependence. The more proprietary features that can be turned into crutches because users never learned how things work, the more power companies have.

another sad example of the direction things are going currently

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby robespierre » Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:36 pm

foetz, that was my first post in this thread, and this is my second :lol:
So my comments may have been off-topic to those of the other poster (wenp), but I don't understand what they meant, so I can't really guess their intent. UFS, for example, is AFAICT irrelevant. But Apple has new filesystems they're going to push on you anyway.
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby foetz » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:40 pm

robespierre wrote:foetz, that was my first post in this thread, and this is my second :lol:
So my comments may have been off-topic to those of the other poster (wenp), but I don't understand what they meant, so I can't really guess their intent

haha indeed. with all the quotes the posts get so long i didn't see the whole thing anymore. and more importantly the author :P
so, to summarize, you replied to my answers to statements somebody else made ... jeez what a brainf... :lol:

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby Shiunbird » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:49 am

So, to summarize, is OS X the best way to be as much UNIX as possible, being "less monitored", and still be able to enjoy access to modern applications, and the few closed-source applications one may need to use to get his/her job done?
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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby foetz » Mon Aug 08, 2016 1:02 pm

Shiunbird wrote:So, to summarize, is OS X the best way to be as much UNIX as possible, being "less monitored", and still be able to enjoy access to modern applications, and the few closed-source applications one may need to use to get his/her job done?

exactly

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Re: Turning your back on windows

Unread postby DMJC » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:07 am

It's not going to be popular, but if you want privacy/security the only choice is Linux, BSD, AROS or ReactOS. All the other options are going to be lo-jacked to talk to the US government. If you think Apple isn't monitoring you, you're deluded, the Snowden leaks went into quite a lot of detail about Apple's relationship with the NSA.

I made a complete switch to linux a few years back, I've come to the opinion that if a tool isn't on Linux and it's really important/necessary then I'll take a look at porting it. If it's too much effort/not necessary then I find an open source alternative. I'm done dealing with all the bullshit of Windows system maintenance. Not having games is thankfully being resolved by Steam, crap like SystemD luckily is being fixed by Devuan and I'm mostly using XFCE4, gnome classic, or MAXX these days for desktop as Gnome has gone retarded with the tablet metaphor. If I really need a Windows app I fire up a ReactOS VM or WINE, it's not 100% compatible, but it's simple enough and legal without giving Microsoft money.


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