NeXT at the Olympics

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josehill
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby josehill » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:51 am

Martin Steen wrote:I wonder what Operating System Tim Berners-Lee would use today.

He is often seen using a Mac laptop.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby melchez » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:04 pm

josehill wrote:
Martin Steen wrote:I wonder what Operating System Tim Berners-Lee would use today.

He is often seen using a Mac laptop.



Still using a NeXT then.
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby hamei » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:25 pm

melchez wrote:Still using a NeXT then.

Oh yeah ... like riding a twinkie Evo is the same as a shovelhead, unh-hunh.

OS X sucks, okay ? It's not NeXTStep and it ain't Unix. It's for the chiiiiiildren yuppy bullshit. Get over it.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby josehill » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:51 pm

Not sure what your definition of UNIX is, hamei, but even Mountain Lion is certified as meeting v3 of the the UNIX specification.

I don't like all of the changes in the last couple of OS X releases, particularly with GUI, and I'm not too keen on some of Apple's feature decisions and support policies, but I can still do everything that I really want to do with it, especially on the command line.

Also, when I sit down in front of my NeXTstation Turbo, it's clear that the current MacOS still has a lot of NeXT DNA, even after undergoing UI iOS'ification in the latest releases.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby hamei » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:19 pm

josehill wrote:Not sure what your definition of UNIX is, hamei, but even Mountain Lion is certified as meeting v3 of the the UNIX specification.

It can meet the Unix specification until the damned cows come home but Unix is a trademark. Trademark ... business guys should know that word, right ? Intellectual Property, all that ? There are what, four or five operating systems that are qualified to call themselves Unix. And only those four or five can legally and ethically call themselves Unix.

A Mach kernel transformed through NeXTStep into some cartoon parody of an operating system does not qualify as Unix, no matter how much noise the fanboyz make. An Arntz Cobra is still an Arntz, not a Cobra, no matter what engine is under the hood or how accurate the bodywork looks.

josehill wrote: ... I'm not too keen on some of Apple's feature decisions and support policies but I can still do everything that I really want to do with it, especially on the command line.

But NeXTStep came with development tools that made it simple for B-L to create the www. One can do anything they desire on any operating system they choose, but is it likely to happen ? On NEXTStep, it was. The system was designed for that. OS X, not so much. Apple wants consumers, purchasers, willing sheep with cash-filled pockets to shear. NeXT was oriented to scientists, researchers, technical users. Not the same. Not even similar. We live in the age of the Java interface.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby SAQ » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:37 pm

I couldn't believe it when I sat down at the first Mac I'd used running Lion and found out that they decided to hide the scroll bars now. They sell 27" iMacs - there's enough real estate for a scroll bar in there. Perhaps back in the days of the 9" Mac Plus it might have made sense - and now all the "me too" guys are doing it as well.

It would be interesting to hear from all the professional UI people on here about the tabletization of everything. It seems to me that forcing the (WIMP-y) PC into the (tile-y) tablet world is the same mistake in reverse that the early tablet people made of trying to make it WIMP-y (think Windows CE).
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby jan-jaap » Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:49 am

hamei wrote:OS X sucks, okay ? [...] yuppy bullshit. Get over it.

I like it. It "just works" which means I have more time to do relevant things. And stop insulting me :mrgreen:

SAQ wrote:I couldn't believe it when I sat down at the first Mac I'd used running Lion and found out that they decided to hide the scroll bars now. They sell 27" iMacs - there's enough real estate for a scroll bar in there.

They also sell 13" MacBooks. Many more of them than 27" iMacs, in fact. Who needs scroll bars when you've got a touch pad? Positioning the cursor over a tiny area on the screen, clicking & holding when a simple swipe does the same thing?
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby josehill » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:30 am

SAQ wrote:I couldn't believe it when I sat down at the first Mac I'd used running Lion and found out that they decided to hide the scroll bars now. They sell 27" iMacs - there's enough real estate for a scroll bar in there. Perhaps back in the days of the 9" Mac Plus it might have made sense - and now all the "me too" guys are doing it as well.
Like I said, I'm not a fan of everything that Apple has been doing, and the scroll bars are good examples. You can turn them on, but it does seem to be a step backwards, imho. And don't get me started on that skeuomorphic crap in Calendar and Contacts! It almost drove me back to pen and paper!

SAQ wrote:It would be interesting to hear from all the professional UI people on here about the tabletization of everything. It seems to me that forcing the (WIMP-y) PC into the (tile-y) tablet world is the same mistake in reverse that the early tablet people made of trying to make it WIMP-y (think Windows CE).
Now that Windows 8 has gone to manufacturing, it'll be interesting to see how quickly it's adopted. I've been using the various previews, and you can add me to the list of people who think the addition of Metro to the desktop system is half-baked, at best, or downright disastrous, at worst. Too bad, really. Win7 seems like the release where MS finally got Windows "right," and Win8 feels like someone has been hitting the hallucinogens. I expect that businesses will stick with Win7 as long as possible.

As for the Apple side of things, I think the most insightful remark about it came at the end of the latest John Siracusa review of OS X over at Ars Technica: "Apple's online platform is the unifying force in its product line, not any one OS. Think of Mountain Lion as the best desktop iCloud client Apple knows how to make." One may argue about whether Apple's online platform should be the unifying force in its product line, but I do think that iCloud'ification is really what is happening to OS X, rather than simply tablet'ification. My own opinion for several years has been that Apple is trying to create the equivalent of the Star Trek environment, where you can walk up to any device, start talking to it, and get what you need from Majel Barrett's disembodied voice, and the current OS X / iOS changes are like the awkward adolescent stages on the way to reaching that scenario.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby josehill » Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:41 am

hamei wrote:But NeXTStep came with development tools that made it simple for B-L to create the www. One can do anything they desire on any operating system they choose, but is it likely to happen ? On NEXTStep, it was. The system was designed for that. OS X, not so much. Apple wants consumers, purchasers, willing sheep with cash-filled pockets to shear. NeXT was oriented to scientists, researchers, technical users. Not the same. Not even similar. We live in the age of the Java interface.

Those tools are still there in OS X, hamei. TBL used the NeXT Interface Builder to build his browser, and Interface Builder - with a clear NeXT family resemblance - is part of Apple's Xcode today. Also, we may live in the age of the Java interface, but I'm sure you know that Apple no longer includes it with OS X.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby melchez » Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:08 am

Xcode = Interface Builder + Project Builder

Prior to Xcode it was called Interface Builder and Project Builder, then Apple merge the two together shortly after the release of Xcode.

Mac OS X comes with a long line of developing tools for a wide range of skill set, on surface look at Quart Composer, node base graphical developing. We just don't see it now, the developing tools was the selling point of NeXT. OS X has a broader audience but it comes with way more tool to develop now compare to it's early NeXT days.

Cash filled pockets? What Xcode cost you now??

Mac OS X developing toolset is over looked. Outside of iOS app developing you don't hear much about folks digging into what OS X has to offer and pretty much for free (once you own a mac).
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby Martin Steen » Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:29 am

OMG I started a flamewar!

I don't care if Mac OS/X is a "real" Unix. Unix is not the holy grail. As long as I can use
all that Posix-stuff and do "./configure, make, make install", it's Unix enough for me.

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby jan-jaap » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:03 am

Martin Steen wrote:OMG I started a flamewar!

typical ...
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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby josehill » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:51 am

Martin Steen wrote:I don't care if Mac OS/X is a "real" Unix. Unix is not the holy grail. As long as I can use
all that Posix-stuff and do "./configure, make, make install", it's Unix enough for me.

Yep. I think that's the bottom line, eh?

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby guardian452 » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:47 pm

It would be interesting to hear from all the professional UI people on here about the tabletization of everything. It seems to me that forcing the (WIMP-y) PC into the (tile-y) tablet world is the same mistake in reverse that the early tablet people made of trying to make it WIMP-y (think Windows CE).
The mac air was sold as sort of an ipad-with-a-keyboard, at least the early 11" that I have, that was the video that sold me on it. They later took a lot of the ideas in iOS and put it in lion. So I also have an ipad (1st generation) and an old 9" symbol tablet (about 1.5 inch thick, but also waterproof dustproof etc, P3 800mhz, etc) that runs windows XP. All of these machines tend to work very well with regards to the interface. Different, but work well none the less.

Mac OS X developing toolset is over looked. Outside of iOS app developing you don't hear much about folks digging into what OS X has to offer and pretty much for free (once you own a mac).
For my thesis project I used an iphone as a host to a wireless footy monitor of sorts (using an ant transceiver to the 30pin connector). iOS is pretty cool but it definitely takes a lot of adjusting, especially for the likes of me, who's focus revolves around feet, shoes, (to a lesser extent, sensors, analog, and microcontrollers); and most definitely not software... but it was done, workable, and very reliable (never crashed on us) in the end. It sure beats having to carry around a laptop when running, or running on a treadmill..

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Re: NeXT at the Olympics

Unread postby hamei » Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:09 pm

josehill wrote:
Martin Steen wrote:I don't care if Mac OS/X is a "real" Unix. Unix is not the holy grail. As long as I can use
all that Posix-stuff and do "./configure, make, make install", it's Unix enough for me.

Yep. I think that's the bottom line, eh?

No it isn't "the bottom line." Joseph, Mary and the Baby Jesus, what do you people use your brains for, spacing your ears out ?

"Look, my computer has a terminal, therefore it must run Multics !"
"Oh look, I can do "cd <directoryname> ! I must be using AIX !"
"Looky looky, mine has directories, therefore it must be DOS !"
"I've got a compiler, mine is System 36 !"
" My Chevvy has doors, therefore it's a Ford."
"Oh hey, my X1/9 has the engine in the middle, therefore it's a GT-40"
"My Vega is red, so it must be an Alfa !"
"Look, my diploma is written on paper, therefore it's a check for $800,000"

Stupid. Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid. Just because all the Apple fanboyz want it to be Unix doesn't mean it is Unix. If wishes were horses, there'd be an entire cavalry of beggars. Here's a free clue for those of you who were not listening in the fifth grade : resemble != is.

(And if Unix is not the holy Grail - with which I certainly agree - then why do people keep insisting that "OS X is Unix ! OS X is Unix !" ... ? Gotta problem with your self-image ?)
Last edited by hamei on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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