Another sgi O2/Gentoo

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dc_v01
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby dc_v01 » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:10 pm

Arabski wrote: Why any of you should tell people who put their free time into developing some "useless" things like Linux for SGI, that they should do something else? It's their free time!

As I stated before, everyone one is free to do there own useless projects. But don't expect cheering. Accompanying the desire for cheering however, many of the Linux folks seem to have this attitude that Linux is inherently more modern, better, or a path forward. Not true - that's the responsibility of application software, really, and not the OS function. Linux != Open source application software. Actually, the point of open source software should be that the applications _do_ run under IRIX.

Arabski wrote:
Another thing, is disticnt antagonism towards Linux in general, represented by *some* of the forum members. Where did it come from? In my humble opinion, Linux is the one of the greatest milestones of computing.

Agreed. While undoubtably some are antagonistic toward Linux in general, my sense would be that most simply are antagonistic toward Linux on SGI, viewed as effort that could be better expended. Linux is a fantastic option for the Intel platform.

Arabski wrote:
And as a conlcusion - IRIX/SGI are dead! Face it. It's a shame, but in the same time it's a fact.

This is a prime example of my point above about the Linux "attitude". To the extent that I do agree with you, it's that SGI/MIPS is "dead". It can be a prolonged drawn out battle, if one wishes, but there's no point to adding Linux to that battle. Have you ever seen a Datsun 240Z? Equipped with a nice inline 6 engine, it became popular for V8 Chevy engine swaps. Sacrilege to some. But at least you're gaining some power. Running Linux is more like swapping in a '70 MGB four, and then you're gaining? Pointless. But the fanbois want adulation and to be cheered on. Again, Linux is great, run it on Intel for the exact same experience, higher performance, and less money.

Arabski wrote:I know you do, but...
If one does not have OS? Gets only the hardware? What then? Can't afford to buy OS? What's the alternative? Steal it? Download from torrents?
Trying not to fall ill of moderators, it's readily available from commericial sources for ~$40 if one doesn't need the latest version (later versions cost many times the base for some reason, even though SGI provides the updates, and later versions (like Linux!) are slower). Some people seem to object to spending any money at all on these machines, and if they do, I'm not sure I see the point of getting them running at all. It's not that much. Fast twice on alternating days and you'll save enough to cough up the dough to gain a copy. And perhaps lose a pound in the process, also good for you.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby skywriter » Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:29 pm

hamei wrote:
R-ten-K wrote:It may be worthwhile then, to not antagonize those doing anything linux-related on SGI MIPS?

Why ? Who cares what they do ? There's never been anything worthwhile that came out of the Linux-MIPS camp for SGI people and there most likely never will be. They may as well install Linux on their washing machines for all the good it does anybody.


I would hate to have the same people that jerk off to linux-lite-brite working on the code path controlling the elevator i'm in, or the car i drive. there's a reason we draw the distinction between grown ups, and children or valuable citizens and the slack jawed village idiot; they know what is useful, and what is a waste of time.
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby noisetonepause » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:04 pm

skywriter wrote:I would hate to have the same people that jerk off to linux-lite-brite working on the code path controlling the elevator i'm in, or the car i drive. there's a reason we draw the distinction between grown ups, and children or valuable citizens and the slack jawed village idiot; they know what is useful, and what is a waste of time.


Wow. Did you alterboy in ESR's church or something?

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby skywriter » Wed Mar 25, 2009 1:17 pm

noisetonepause wrote:Wow. Did you alterboy in ESR's church or something?


i guess that's some linux/open source wunderkind you all pray too? is he in prison for murdering his wife too?
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby noisetonepause » Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:06 pm

skywriter wrote:
noisetonepause wrote:Wow. Did you alterboy in ESR's church or something?


i guess that's some linux/open source wunderkind you all pray too? is he in prison for murdering his wife too?


Eric S. Raymond. Beyond this, I'm not a fan. He's disgusting enough to provoke reactions like your own is all.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby AndrewR » Thu Mar 26, 2009 8:47 pm

Well .. not so well. (really, FUD-fest here)

I'm surprised .. but not too much.

1) SGI/MIPS is dead .. may be. But their ideas still alive.
2) Graphics hardware IS complex --- but this is exactly reason why one might want to look at SGI hardware, not overloaded with all latest details.
2.1) Many stability/speed issues for open-source radeon driver (for example) come from bad combination of motherboard AGP/PCI chipset and particular videocard. I hope SGI hardware don't need many workarounds (practice will tell truth)
2.2) Cheap early PC 3D cards were lacking many features one may found on (high-end at this time) SGI. This contributed to some workarounds in Mesa3D. First Mesa DRI driver was written for full-OpenGL-at-hardware-level , professional-class card. [iirc] And for OpenGL 1.3 level hardware even old Mesa core was nearly as good as native driver (minus some latest OpenGL features, stopped by graphics memory management problems, hopefully solved now). Some 'workstation' features not supported by X.org X server at least partially because hardware was very uncommon. On the other hand, latest software sometimes need some X extensions not available in old X servers. Actually, under NetBSD O2 rendering engine outperfrorms my low-end ATI radeon 9200! Only because Michael invested his time in this useless for most people around project! AIGLX will not give you compiz (without rectangular, Non-power-of-two texture support), but it will give you remote hardware-accelerated OpenGL (yes, i remember about DistributedGL on SGI at the beginning. Probably, IRIX can do this today, too ... anyone, check please?)

FFmpeg project (main multimedia library behind Mplayer) now have some support for hardware video decoding API - it was only dream (if you do not count XvMC, older, mostly mpeg1/2 acceleration extension) few months ago. So, it may be useful to have access to hardware at lowest possible level .....

Nouveau and Radeon (open-source) driver projects powered by people... They want to have fast software, too .. they willing to learn how to do it. IRIX already uses full hardware power .. but only for old tricks.

Great irony, but (old) GIO64 bus may have better open documentation, compared to newest-and-coolest PCI/PCI-E (only looked briefly at it, may be some key components/details still not there).....

Octane's graphics cards, Impact and Odyssey, ...if you have hardware you can try to play with code, available as Linux kernel patches. Surely, even mostly un-accelerated Impact X driver can do DMA! (at least should. try it! ) Regardless of your position about Linux ...why you _don't_ want to look under the carpet? (some people here already do it, at level i can only dream ... continue your good work!)

Sorry, it was long night. Just send two PMs, good night for now.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby AndrewR » Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:37 pm

http://web.archive.org/web/200009030959 ... /dri2.html
Date: 1999/12/02
The example driver released with DRI 1.0 is for a high-end graphics card that implements most of OpenGL in hardware.

....
The current sample implementation does not support any example software fallbacks (this is reasonable because the GMX 2000 doesn't need software fallbacks).
----

Of course, O2 not very advanced in this area, but other card(sets) are.

And small clarification: it was x11perf -aa10text test where NetBSD driver for O2 was faster than my current radeon card on PC.

EDIT:
another link:
===
"High Performance Graphics in Linux", around 1999
http://www.cs.clemson.edu/~westall/gfx/hpgfx.html - look for "final.pdf"
Table 1: Test system characteristics
Name Model Cost Date CPU Clock Graphics
slinky Octane 28K 2 98 R10000 250MHz EMXI
buzz O2 18K 5 97 R10000 174Mhz CRM
glint Millenia 5K 5 97 P-Pro 200Mhz GLINT 500TXD
===

Not very high-end hw ....

Reason for posting this ... even _YOU_ can write device drivers - it is not some black magic ...

Hm. Or not?
--
from Octane Linux patches ...
odyssey.c.diff
+* Copyright (c) 2005 by Stanislaw Skowronek
+ * Note: the driver is specialcased for 8x16 font (will be a bit faster).
+ *
+ * Odyssey is a really cool graphics device. It is a dual-chip OpenGL
+ * implementation with ARB_imaging support, and overall a very elegant design.

One difference between binary drivers and open-source ones - you can find some regular English expressions in latter ....

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Fri Mar 27, 2009 3:58 pm

AndrewR wrote:Reason for posting this ... even _YOU_ can write device drivers - it is not some black magic ...


Not everyone.... there are 3D artists on this forum far far far more talented than I who don't like something even high level as MEL or Python.

Yes any clown can write device drivers, writing a good solid device driver is an art form. (*)

I write GCC/Linux code everyday at work on x86.
I'd rather run IRIX on SGI hardware at home.
I was probably within the first 5 people here to try out Gentoo/MIPS live CD.
I like IRIX and I couldn't care less about Linux on MIPS or most other platforms for that matter.

Regan

* I used to maintain some in house developed drivers for a living and some time after that at another job I spent almost a year being given dozen Dr Watsons logs and blue screens a day to hack my way through and when I worked in Japan, I looked over my bosses shoulder at Windows Server 2003 code, they must do it in crayon in Redmond.
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby guardian452 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:54 pm

I'm kinda surprised here. Linux on mips may not be ideal, but must we throw shit at him for it?

Only because Michael invested his time in this useless for most people around project!
If no other person other than him uses it, and he enjoys it, then it is not worthless. (I have no idea what project you are talking about) So long as YOU enjoy something, is all that matters. 5 users or 5 million users, makes no difference.

I don't *like* linux. But It's amazing how quickly respectable professionals descend to monkeys throwing shit at each other when somebody mentions the L word here. Yes it sucks. Can we move on?

It all comes down to one linux hobbyist playing with an o2 in his spare time. If it makes him happy, let him at it.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:15 pm

sybrfreq wrote: It's amazing how quickly respectable professionals descend to monkeys throwing shit at each other when somebody mentions the L word here.


The episode with the lesbian threesome bedroom scene rocked.

RR
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby dc_v01 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:22 pm

sybrfreq wrote:I'm kinda surprised here. Linux on mips may not be ideal, but must we throw shit at him for it?
....
It all comes down to one linux hobbyist playing with an o2 in his spare time. If it makes him happy, let him at it.

I'm not throwing shit here, in general. But...
bri3d wrote:The more time passes, the more interest in SGI support under Linux wanes. We should be pushing it as much as we can while it's strong.

...is what sets people off.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby R-ten-K » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:44 pm

Probably I am missing something here, but I fail to see how the comment you pointed at would "set people off" :?:

Honestly, this is the "everything else" in the "miscellaneous" category of the forum. It is just a post about some person just saying "hey I got linux going on this O2." I mean some perspective may be in order? It is just a hobbyist running an open source OS in an old piece of hardware. Nothing more really, and some people react as if he had commited some sort of crime against humanity or something.


Some people need to really really really lighten up a bit... jesus tap dancing christ on a pogo stick... but that is just like my opinion dude :-) So what do I know...
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:20 pm

r10K wrote:Some people need to really really really lighten up a bit... jesus tap dancing christ on a pogo stick... but that is just like my opinion dude So what do I know...


Linus on a wooden cross in LaTeX g-string with a hard-on, 99% of discussion on this forum, is supporting IRIX, IRIX programming, IRIX customization, IRIX, IRIX, IRIX... Coming in to a forum where IRIX is discussed everywhere and selling Linux as a replacement for IRIX is like walking into a cathedral, pissing in the holy water and shouting satan does a better deal.

SGI/MIPS is dead .. may be. But their ideas still alive.
What ideas?

SGI/MIPS is dead ..
Then go play with your quad Xeon. I am not "wrong" for using a unsupported dead operating system like IRIX. I started with ATT System V Release 2 on NCR Tower32 machines. I've been using Linux since 0.99pl12 when I told someone it would be cool to write a freeware xenix clone and they dumped 50 floppies on my desk in 1992 or 1993. I don't need to be sold. I don't hate Linux, I have a long be been a user. I am sick of having things rammed down my throat(**). In fact, evangelists and having things rammed down my throat is turning me off Linux. Evangelism is moving me from agnostic to antagonistic. I don't need to be told that SGI/MIPS is dead. I spent the last 21 years as a developer watching MS-DOS and then Linux eat propriety UNIX market share.

Graphics hardware IS complex
in SGIs case propriety, and subject to trade secrets and really really closed, and especially designed for the other hardware it runs with which is also full of secrets.

but this is exactly reason why one might want to look at SGI hardware, not overloaded with all latest details.
No it is far more complex than your average PC... My graphics hardware is almost as big as a kitchen appliance like oven or dishwasher, my IR3 has separate boards for Raster Manager, Display Generator, I can pull a DG5-2 out and replace it with a DG5-16 and go from 2 monitors to 16. The most complex Linux beowulf clusters are less complex than my 24 cpu, dual graphics pipe (2 x-towns to one k-town) setup.

Porter said enough to be the last word, when he wrote:If you install IRIX you have an SGI system.

If you install Linux, you have yet-another-linux-box, that happens to have an SGI label on the case.



From:
And learning about os internals. I'm still user, not real developer, but prefer to move myself in this direction.
to:
Reason for posting this ... even _YOU_ can write device drivers - it is not some black magic ...
in under 5 posts. Amazing. (*)


sybfreq wrote:
troll, troll, troll your boat



Comic book guy wrote:Most successful troll ever.


Evangelizing Linux on SGI bores the bee-gezzus out of me, I'd rather watch The L word.

RR.

* I have spent decades as a programmer debugging and cleaning up someone else's mess.
** I forgot to fire up the 5000 Watt Onyx2, all the Origin 300s and the larger RS/6000 for earth hour also :oops:
Last edited by PymbleSoftware on Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby R-ten-K » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:31 pm

PymbleSoftware wrote:Coming in to a forum where IRIX is discussed everywhere and selling Linux as a replacement for IRIX is like walking into a cathedral, pissing in the holy water and shouting satan does a better deal.


... which is why this post was posted on "Board index » Miscellaneous » Everything Else"

No offense, but this site is owned by Neko. It is up to him or the administrators to decide what content does not belong on this site. However, If Irix was the only sanctioned topic for this whole forum, then I want to know what all those sections pertaining the discussion of issues regarding HP/DEC/Compaq/IBM/SUN/Miscellaneous Operating Systems/Hardware are doing in this site.

If you find Linux offensive, or boring. Probably clicking on a topic that discusses Linux is not the best of ideas?
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:46 pm

Even I have played with Gentoo on Octane. Selling it as an IRIX replacement I am not.
I never implied Irix was the only sanctioned topic for this whole forum, not even close.

I find selling Linux as a panacea for all things offensive.

I wrote: I write GCC/Linux code everyday at work on x86.
...
they dumped 50 floppies on my desk in 1992 or 1993. I don't need to be sold. I don't hate Linux, I have a long be been a user.


RR.
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