Another sgi O2/Gentoo

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AndrewR
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Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby AndrewR » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:23 pm

Hello!

This machine has little CPU power (only 180Mhz r5k) but i can browse web, and look at this forum ;)

This post from konqueror-3.5.10, next task(s):

1) add patch from https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=482759 into my own 'overlay' and see if i can compile epiphany (GNOME browser based on Gecko)

2) Oprofile

3) Figure out how to add some acceleration to gbefb (Linux and NetBSD uses somewhat different register description files, i can see "big picture", but lost in necessary implementation details)

4) Vice patches - kernel part was good enough for _not_ killing kernel at startup, i want to actually try something with it ....

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kshuff
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby kshuff » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:00 pm

AndrewR wrote:i want to actually try something with it ....


Then install IRIX on it.
-ks

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby porter » Thu Mar 19, 2009 3:21 pm

kshuff wrote:
AndrewR wrote:i want to actually try something with it ....


Then install IRIX on it.


If you install IRIX you have an SGI system.

If you install Linux, you have yet-another-linux-box, that happens to have an SGI label on the case.
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guardian452
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby guardian452 » Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:36 pm

i can browse web, and look at this forum

Strangely enough, my r5k 180 o2 can do a hell of a lot more than yours can.

troll, troll, troll your boat

Don't get me wrong; this is technically very impressive. But most people here will brand you as a glutton for punishment. I used to use gentoo on my octane until I got irix. I like irix more. But I still use gentoo as a basic server/gateway (on a PC of course).
Last edited by guardian452 on Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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kshuff
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby kshuff » Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:16 pm

sybrfreq wrote:
troll, troll, troll your boat



Hamei strikes again :lol:
-ks

:Onyx: :Onyx: :Crimson: :O2000: :Onyx2: :Fuel: :Octane: :Octane2: :PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :O2: :O2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :320: :540: :O3x0: :1600SW: :1600SW: :hpserv:

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josehill
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby josehill » Thu Mar 19, 2009 7:11 pm

Personally, I think it's very cool to have somebody from St. Petersburg, Russia on the forum, tinkering with an O2, whether it's running Linux or IRIX.

You are much more likely to get good feedback about IRIX or hardware issues here than you are likely to get a lot of help for Linux. You'll probably get more Linux on MIPS answers from websites that are more specialized on that topic.

There are a few people on this board, however, who have some experience with Linux on O2s and other SGI MIPS machines, so welcome aboard, AndrewR, and have fun! ;)

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby AndrewR » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:29 am

Hi, thanks for feedback!

Yes, i remember (from this forum) about all those stories when SGI kill their os and whole mips line of machines and move to Linux/ia64 or x86-64. I can play with NetBSD/Linux on NFS and still have IRIX installed on hdd (and i have it). Yes, Linux can't use sgi hardware fully - but this situation can be 'corrected' :>

From hardware point of view - everything works very well, only scsi controller dislikes hard power failures - but i have UPS now. I prefer don't use hdd and cd-rom too much, they both not very old, but have finite lifetime ... i don't have any extra options (no camera, no LCD, no AV module) , but even always-there integrated hardware units looks very interesting.

I prefer to look at machines and OSes from very low-level perspective, mostly trying to understand hw, drivers, compilers ... How exactly all this work together. New hardware is cool, but you always will have something like 7000x3000 dirac-encoded movies (read: too much even for newest x86 processors). On the other hand - low-power machine good for catching slow software paths. And learning about os internals. I'm still user, not real developer, but prefer to move myself in this direction.

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fu
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby fu » Sun Mar 22, 2009 12:41 pm

(uh-oh this might be my lucky brake)

hi Andrew + welcome 2 nekochan

i can't help you much with your sgi software/hacks journey but...

since you're from Russia + i'm a huge admirer of Russian Art:

i'm looking for some (way out of print) books/publications by El Lissitzky,

(you can tell by my current avatar that i'm paying tribute to the master :))

if you have access to any such books i'd happily trade o2 hardware/money to make it worth your while...

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milatchi
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby milatchi » Sun Mar 22, 2009 2:09 pm

kshuff wrote:
AndrewR wrote:i want to actually try something with it ....


Then install IRIX on it.

Bam!
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tillin9
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby tillin9 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:00 pm

Still don't understand all the Linux haters out there.

<rant>
Yes, IRIX works better on SGI hardware for now... But SGI basically killed IRIX and won't release source. There are multiple projects to fix Linux performance and feature set on SGIs, not to mention projects to recreate everything we love about IRIX (from the GUI, to getting the unique binaries running) on Linux.

I'm fairly sure that eventually (it might take 20 years) we'll have Flame and all the other proprietary IRIX apps running on SGI hardware at full speed under Linux.

I'd think everyone here would be solidly behind these efforts and not criticize those trying to further them.
</rant>

AndrewR, I remember you told me about trying the VICE patches on my Linux O2. I'm sorry that fell by the wayside. They were too far beyond my skills to even really attempt without a little more direction. If you have something a little more structured for me to try, I'll do my best to contribute something useful. If we can get VICE or the video in/ out working the only thing missing will be hardware accelerated graphics. Not sure if the ALSA patches went into mainline yet, I can help you find them if they're not in yet.

Also, from personal experience trying to run KDE on a 180 Mhz O2 is asking for trouble. I highly suggest trying XFCE or something more lightweight until you upgrade the processor. The lack of EXA or any form of 2D hardware acceleration basically kills the GUI under Linux for now. Hoping real hard for KMS (kernel mode setting) in the open source ATI driver to finally be done. This basically means a radeon X1550 will work on an O2.

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby porter » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:33 pm

tillin9 wrote:Still don't understand all the Linux haters out there.


I'm not a Linux hater, I have Linux, NetBSD, OpenBSD, FreeBSD, QNX, BeOS, Solaris all running on i386, Tru64 on Alpha, AIX on rs6k, HPUX on HP9000, IRIX on SGIs, Solaris and SunOS on Sparcs. I also have Linux running on PlayStation2 and PPC macintoshes.

I like to have boxes running original OS, variety being the spice of life.
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bri3d
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby bri3d » Sun Mar 22, 2009 5:39 pm

tillin9 wrote:Still don't understand all the Linux haters out there.


Agreed - Linux is going to become more and more viable as a way to get modern software on SGI systems as time goes on.

Obviously the majority of SGI collectors will continue to run IRIX - it's still useful for what it was originally, it's not like existing Discreet software is going to stop running suddenly, and it's one of the reasons to run the hardware in the first place. But I think we'll start to see a growing number of people who also want to use their SGIs for something "modern," like Firefox 3 (much as it sucks), who turn to Linux as a means to this end (maybe even in a dual-boot setup).

I'm fairly sure that eventually (it might take 20 years) we'll have Flame and all the other proprietary IRIX apps running on SGI hardware at full speed under Linux.


I don't know about this one - will we see IRIX binaries running on Linux? Probably, it's been done before. Will we see them at full speed? Maybe not. Will we see things like Flame? I'm not sure that's likely, for a few reasons (more on this in a second).

I'd think everyone here would be solidly behind these efforts and not criticize those trying to further them.


Cannot agree more. The more time passes, the more interest in SGI support under Linux wanes. We should be pushing it as much as we can while it's strong.

The lack of EXA or any form of 2D hardware acceleration basically kills the GUI under Linux for now. Hoping real hard for KMS (kernel mode setting) in the open source ATI driver to finally be done. This basically means a radeon X1550 will work on an O2.


Here is where I'd like to make my big point - the thing that's going to keep the full-speed Linux support you dream of away is graphics. Graphics are immensely complex - reverse-engineering a full graphics system is rare. Even the Noveau and Radeon DRI support projects didn't get anywhere near full-speed, and that was with the support of a huge number of people. Even with more and more (almost full) documentation, the radeonhd driver is seeing few strides in supporting full-speed graphics. The fact of the matter is that very few people are smart enough to understand the complexity levels of today's (or yesterday's SGI) graphics systems, even with documentation, and most of them have full-time jobs doing graphics commercially.
This is why I think it's crucial that instead of bashing Linux efforts now, we embrace them - the more time we can get these smart people to spend on SGI hardware now, when they're interested, the more there will be to work off of later, when an IRIX-like desktop, etc. matures on Linux.
I'd love to see Linux start to get some 2D acceleration support to make desktops usable, especially on O2 where it's already been done in the BSDs. Once I get a hold of an O2, I might even poke at it myself. Once it's usable as a daily desktop, hopefully we'll see some more interest in Linux on SGI and some more people willing to do the really hard stuff, like 3D.

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guardian452
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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby guardian452 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:05 pm

It's not so much that I dislike linux, but if you are going to go through the trouble of getting an sgi it's kinda silly to run a buggy and unoptimized OS on it. Once the OP said he also has irix, that made me feel better, because you should at least try it out to see what the machine is capable of. You wouldn't go out and get the latest $3000 nvidia turbo-force 9000000 graphic card and then try and get a custom-written terminal emulator going on it... or, maybe you would.

I'm not so sure if it is worth the effort of getting linux going on backasswords, obsolete, and discontinued hardware... IRIX has a c compiler, the programs that I use are available for it (thanks nekochan!). I personally would like to see usb support so I can put music on my walkman without needing a windows pc :D but that will probably not happen either.

It's a chicken-egg situation to get started but I know the impact graphics on octane have been working (at least minimally) in linux for years. At least since gentoo 2005.

<linux rant>
The problem with linux that I have is that it's so... unstable. and convoluted. Whether it is gentoo requiring 57 steps to update, then reboot, and if you didn't follow 57 steps in order while adjusting your tin foil hat, you've got a real mess on your hands.

^^judging by the time stamp on that photo, april 21, 2008 was the last day I have ever bothered with linux 8-) With the exception of school stuff, which is handled in a VM.

Or ubuntu, with it automagically deciding to mount every drive in your system, even if it is just a live cd system, and your ntfs partitions then spending hours to chkdsk afterwards. And it's missing all the development headers so you can't install anything. And every time you run the updater it demands you reboot.

Linux was supposed to be the answer to windows instability but they've merely replaced the rare blue screen with a kernel panic that occurs often, when the neighbor's dog barks, when the garage door opens, when there is a solar flare, etc.
<end linux rant>

I would probably be best off with a mac or ms-dos but I'm sure I would find something to complain about there too :P

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby dc_v01 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:37 pm

bri3d wrote:
tillin9 wrote:Still don't understand all the Linux haters out there.


Agreed - Linux is going to become more and more viable as a way to get modern software on SGI systems as time goes on.
....
But I think we'll start to see a growing number of people who also want to use their SGIs for something "modern," like Firefox 3 (much as it sucks), who turn to Linux as a means to this end (maybe even in a dual-boot setup).

No, No, and no. I don't think most IRIX users hate Linux. Linux is great. But for the SGI users who want to run more modern software, they don't see the point of running it under Linux. If you want to run modern software under Linux, I'd run it on an Intel platform where it would run even better and look exactly the same. The reason IRIX users get so upset over the linux efforts is because of your following point...
I'd think everyone here would be solidly behind these efforts and not criticize those trying to further them.

Cannot agree more. The more time passes, the more interest in SGI support under Linux wanes. We should be pushing it as much as we can while it's strong.

Why waste the effort? Getting Linux running well on an SGI platform is a _bigger_ task than simply getting some application software running under IRIX, as you note later in your post about graphics. Having a small subset of that effort directed against some current application software (basically a web browser) would accomplish most of what people want. The IRIX users here get up in arms because you're crying for everyone to cheer the effort when they wished you'd put a fraction of it into what they're interested in. It's clear that there is some fundamental flaw with compiling a browser on the MIPS/IRIX platform, based on the performance relative to other platforms. It seems unlikely to me that running linux alone would solve that problem, and it whatever the issue is it'd likely be the same linux/irix. And in the end, if I'm running Linux Firefox 3 and all that looks SGI about it is the case, I'd be far better off with a casemod project to fit an Intel processor in it. There's simply nothing interesting in particular about having Linux on an SGI platform - when you go that route, you're basically screaming - "I want to have a slow computer!" and claiming that makes it interesting.

What you're really looking at is similar to asking why don't people by MacIntosh hardware to run Windows. Yes, you can, and some people do. But for most,OS X is one of the main reasons they're buying that hardware in the first place - and hence the reason why Apple has switched hardware platforms twice already without skipping a beat. I'd still buy SGI IRIX hardware if it was Intel based - in fact I'd love that. But SGI Intel Hardware if it's Windows based? You saw how well that turned out. Maybe another analogy would be - why not develop linux for 68000 Motorola Macintosh hardware? It would get more modern software on them! Did they even develop PPC versions of Linux for Mac hardware? (I don't know, really, let me know?)

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Re: Another sgi O2/Gentoo

Unread postby porter » Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:50 pm

dc_v01 wrote:Maybe another analogy would be - why not develop linux for 68000 Motorola Macintosh hardware? It would get more modern software on them! Did they even develop PPC versions of Linux for Mac hardware? (I don't know, really, let me know?)


I have run Debian/m68k on a MacIIvx, and run Debian/Woody on a Performa 6200.
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