tcp/ip

Additional operating system/hardware discussion (Windows, Linux, *BSD and others)
Forum rules
Any posts concerning pirated software or offering to buy/sell/trade commercial software are subject to removal.
hamei
Posts: 10000
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

tcp/ip

Unread postby hamei » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:08 pm

how come .... Why did tcp/ip become ubiquitous, when other xerox-derived protocols like Novell Netware and Banyan Vines were more reliable and more common early in the network day ?

User avatar
Adrenaline
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 12:37 pm
Location: Laurel, MD USA
Contact:

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby Adrenaline » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:22 pm

The internet maybe? I remember growing up in the 90s and relying more on IPX (especially for gaming), but in the late 90s that switched.
:Indigo: 33mhz R3k/48mb/XS24 :Indy: 150mhz R4400/256mb/XL24 :Fuel: 600mhz R14kA/2gb/V10 Image 8x1.4ghz Itanium 2/8GB :O3x08R: 32x600mhz R14kA/24GB :Tezro: 4x700mhz R16k/8GB/V12/DCD/SAS/FC/DM5 (2x) :O3x0: 4x700mhz R16k/4GB :PrismDT: 2x1.6ghz 8mb/12gb/SAS/2xFGL

User avatar
smj
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA, NA, Earth, Sol
Contact:

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby smj » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:32 pm

My take? They solved too small a problem. You never got much in the way of services beyond filesharing and printing - which they did well. Authentication and directory services, meh. And I don't think they were particularly good over WAN links where you wanted anything more than bridging.

So Netware, Vines, etc were okay as long as you just wanted your PCs to talk to other PCs. Through the early-90s they were all pretty healthy - until Windows NT targeted them all for elimination. Then you've got NetBEUI, SMB, Active Directory, and so on razing their villages and despoiling their herds.

TCP/IP was already ubiquitous for the 'Net, e.g. for WAN services like FTP, Gopher, etc by the start of the 90s. Meanwhile UNIX workstations and servers became ever more popular, and even VMS was usually seen with one TCP/IP product or another on it. Apple gets MacTCP to take advantage of these services, and the PCs, well, sortof - packet drivers, FTP Software, Trumpet/WinSOCK. Then you get the Web, about the same time that Apple and Microsoft have internalized TCP/IP from these add-on products.

Should I keep blathering, or have I already missed your point?
Then? :IRIS3130: ... Now? :O3x02L: :A3504L:- :A3502L: :1600SW:+MLA :Fuel: :Octane2: :Octane: :Indigo2IMP: ... Other: DEC :BA213: :BA123: Sun, DG AViiON, NeXT :Cube:

User avatar
josehill
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3027
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:53 pm
Location: New England, USA
Contact:

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby josehill » Wed Mar 21, 2012 7:48 pm

hamei wrote:Why did tcp/ip become ubiquitous, when other xerox-derived protocols like Novell Netware and Banyan Vines were more reliable and more common early in the network day ?

Licensing issues, perhaps?

User avatar
zahal
Posts: 812
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 11:43 am

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby zahal » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:25 pm

...one protocol to rule them all
Sitting in a room.....thinkin' shit up. :evil:

:O2: 400MHz R12k - :320: Dual 550MHz PIII - Apple G4 Cube dual 500MHz/GF6200 - Newton Messagepad 2100 - Apple PowerBook 2400c/G3@240 - DECstation5000/133 - Apple Workgroup Server 9150/120 G3@280 - Apple Macintosh IIfx - Apple Macintosh Color Classic (Mystic upgrade) - Sun Cobalt Cube 3 - Tadpole RDI UltraBook IIi - Digital HiNote Ultra II - HP 200LX

User avatar
Alver
Posts: 755
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:46 pm
Location: Zele, Belgium
Contact:

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby Alver » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:43 am

hamei wrote:how come .... Why did tcp/ip become ubiquitous, when other xerox-derived protocols like Novell Netware and Banyan Vines were more reliable and more common early in the network day ?


IPX didn't quite scale well. Ever watched a packet dump of a Novell network with a few thousand machines/printers? Broadcast madness. :)
while (!asleep()) sheep++;

User avatar
R-ten-K
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:36 pm
Location: Nor Cal

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby R-ten-K » Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:00 pm

hamei wrote:how come .... Why did tcp/ip become ubiquitous,


Very simple: the internet and specially the web happened.

when other xerox-derived protocols like Novell Netware and Banyan Vines were more reliable and more common early in the network day ?



IPX had a smaller overhead than TCP, but it was definitively not "more reliable."

At the large organization/network level, DECNet, SNA et al may have had a larger presence than either VINES, IPX, or ARCNET. And at the mid/small local area level nebeui was probably more widespread given Microsoft's market size when compared to either novell or banyan (although netbeui proper ran on top of the IPX,TCP, etc stacks). TCP and UDP were the stack associated with Unix and the internet services, so there were plenty of nodes running it from way back.
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort of sun-god robes on a
pyramid with thousand naked women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"

SAQ
Posts: 5758
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:37 am
Location: Renton, WA

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby SAQ » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:07 pm

Same way UNIX (and later Linux) and x86 PCs took over. Make a product that works OK and then offer a great deal on it. Expose a bunch of university CS students to it so you get the Apple-factor going on (for the software). Then make it simple. (at some level aren't you glad that SNA didn't take over?) Who knows - if DEC had been a little more cooperative we could all be on DECnet phase-6 right now.
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

There are those who say I'm a bit of a curmudgeon. To them I reply: "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

:Indigo: :Octane: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :PI: :O3x0: :ChallengeL: :O2000R: (single-CM)

User avatar
smj
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA, NA, Earth, Sol
Contact:

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby smj » Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:48 pm

SAQ wrote:Who knows - if DEC had been a little more cooperative we could all be on DECnet phase-6 right now.

Understand what you mean, but... DECnet Phase V was built on the OSI model. Even if they'd given it away, even if they'd open sourced a stack, I imagine it still would've been dragged down by ISO. I may have quaffed too much IETF Kool-Aid back in the day, but...

HECnet is still using DECnet Phase IV, but then their target is hobbyists and they want to include PDP-11s. I'd be interested to see what HEPnet* was doing with Phase V - or not, can't remember...


* High Energy Physics, not the Hepatitis Information Network thank you very much :o
Then? :IRIS3130: ... Now? :O3x02L: :A3504L:- :A3502L: :1600SW:+MLA :Fuel: :Octane2: :Octane: :Indigo2IMP: ... Other: DEC :BA213: :BA123: Sun, DG AViiON, NeXT :Cube:

hamei
Posts: 10000
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: tcp/ip

Unread postby hamei » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:04 am

Thanks for the comments ... it was just idle curiosity but the reasons were interesting ...


Return to “Miscellaneous Operating Systems/Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest