Unix is like a British car

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hamei
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Unix is like a British car

Unread postby hamei » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:28 am

Everything is put together out of thirty pieces of cardboard, using about a hundred 10-26 screws. Whitworth, at that. My SGI's are okay but sometimes, jesus .... a simple thing like setting up a mail server : in OS/2, half an hour, max. And that includes typing in all the users' names PLUS you don't have to add them to the system as "users." In Unix, two completely separate mail programs and about fifty prerequisites to find and download, thirty pages of documentation that still doesn't tell you shit. Or ftp ... paddywack paddywack. Local users, anonymous users, virtual users, config files all over the countryside, it's ridiculous. When they are running I like them but expletive deleted, it's retarded for the same task that took less than half an hour ten years ago to be this time-consuming. I don't want to play with my dick all day, I just want an ftp server that will work as well as Peter Moylan's stuff did in 1995. This is silly.

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SupremeCmdr
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Unread postby SupremeCmdr » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:48 am

Hey leave British motoring out of this, they've made some fine cars.
:lol:
Apple Unibody MBP 2.66Ghz, 8Gb OSX 10.6
Apple MacMini 1.83Ghz, 1Gb OSX 10.5
Apple Power Mac Cube 450Mhz, 256Mb, OSX 10.3 Sweet!
Sun Ultra10 440Mhz 1Gb, SunOS 5.10

http://gothmog.homeunix.net/blog

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sgielan
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Unread postby sgielan » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:15 am

SupremeCmdr wrote:Hey leave British motoring out of this, they've made some fine cars.
:lol:
and also some crap ones as well
Indigo Elan 32mb/425mb/elan video
Indigo 2 768mb/2x 36gb/impact graphics
________________________________________

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hamei
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Unread postby hamei » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:54 am

SupremeCmdr wrote:Hey leave British motoring out of this, they've made some fine cars.
:lol:

I had a '64 E-Type. After I welded all the pieces together and threw away about 100 pounds of nuts and bolts, it was a lot nicer :-)

SAQ
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Unread postby SAQ » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:56 am

Once you get UNIX running it usually stays running, which is different from a Jaguar.

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VenomousPinecone
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Unread postby VenomousPinecone » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:02 pm

SAQ wrote:Once you get UNIX running it usually stays running, which is different from a Jaguar.


:lol:

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shel
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Re: Unix is like a British car

Unread postby shel » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:42 pm

hamei wrote:Everything is put together out of thirty pieces of cardboard, using about a hundred 10-26 screws. Whitworth, at that. My SGI's are okay but sometimes, jesus .... a simple thing like setting up a mail server ...

I dunno about that ... I built Postfix from source, and installed it, in about an hour. It worked fine right out of the box, with the default configuration.

I think I'm using whatever POP3 daemon came with IRIX ... or maybe it's the UW IMAP/POP3 kit from Freeware. I can't remember. I've never touched it since I installed it, in any case, and I don't remember any configuration at all.

I have spent a lot of time tuning Postfix (just as I did tuning cars when I was racing) since I installed it, but it works very, very well. As a bonus, my SGIs don't leak oil.

What's that old saying ... "UNIX is very user-friendly, it's just choosy about who its friends are."

-Shel

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porter
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Unread postby porter » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:30 pm

Whereas Windows is an American bloated gas guzzling monstrosity. I like the analogy. :) Plenty of chrome and built in obsolesence.

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hamei
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Re: Unix is like a British car

Unread postby hamei » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:30 pm

shel wrote:I dunno about that ... I built Postfix from source, and installed it, in about an hour. It worked fine right out of the box, with the default configuration.

I think I'm using whatever POP3 daemon came with IRIX ... or maybe it's the UW IMAP/POP3 kit from Freeware. I can't remember. I've never touched it since I installed it, in any case, and I don't remember any configuration at all.


Oh sure ... if all you are doing is getting mail for yourself on your own box, it's easy. Try adding fifteen or twenty users and two or three mail domains. Ha. Hahaha. Postfix is still not too bad but Cyrus sucks the big ten inch. Install Cyrus. Install Perl. Install OpenSSL. Install OpenLDAP. Install MySQL. Install the kitchen sink. Try to get them all working together with fifty-three different varieties of Linux and Linux directions (each of which forget one or two essential steps.) Where are the config files and utilities and binaries for these programs ? All over the map. Cyrus alone has its tools and configuration files in three or four places. What kind of stupid shit is that ? Does anyone put their socks in five different drawers ? And all the Unix mail clients I've seen suck as well. Who ever thought that putting 237 e-mails into one file would be a good idea ?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not promoting Windows but this situation is ridiculous.

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shel
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Re: Unix is like a British car

Unread postby shel » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:53 pm

hamei wrote:
shel wrote:I dunno about that ... I built Postfix from source, and installed it, in about an hour. It worked fine right out of the box, with the default configuration.

I think I'm using whatever POP3 daemon came with IRIX ... or maybe it's the UW IMAP/POP3 kit from Freeware. I can't remember. I've never touched it since I installed it, in any case, and I don't remember any configuration at all.


Oh sure ... if all you are doing is getting mail for yourself on your own box, it's easy. Try adding fifteen or twenty users and two or three mail domains. Ha. Hahaha. Postfix is still not too bad but Cyrus sucks the big ten inch. Install Cyrus. Install Perl. Install OpenSSL. Install OpenLDAP. Install MySQL. Install the kitchen sink. Try to get them all working together with fifty-three different varieties of Linux and Linux directions (each of which forget one or two essential steps.) Where are the config files and utilities and binaries for these programs ? All over the map. Cyrus alone has its tools and configuration files in three or four places. What kind of stupid shit is that ? Does anyone put their socks in five different drawers ?

For that number of users, I'd have just set them up with system accounts with null shells, and let 'em use POP3. Unless, of course, you need the SMTP Auth stuff Cyrus offers so they can relay mail from outside your LAN....

It all depends on what you're trying to do. In general, the further you get from UNIX's original "collegial" security model, the worse it gets. If everyone is on your LAN, and trustworthy, great. If they are spread all over the world, and you can't control them and their machines, UNIX access and security can get to be a PITA in a hurry. As you say, there's loads of room for improvement.

Maybe UNIX is more like a famous British quote than a British car. To paraphrase Churchill, "It has been said that UNIX is the worst form of operating system except all the others that have been tried."

-Shel

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hamei
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Re: Unix is like a British car

Unread postby hamei » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:25 pm

shel wrote:Maybe UNIX is more like a famous British quote than a British car. To paraphrase Churchill, "It has been said that UNIX is the worst form of operating system except all the others that have been tried."l

I don't think it's really Unix'es fault ... it's more the fault of so many "developers" who are more interested in playing with their dicks than they are in creating a useful, clean, application. People want to use Unics for everything, I mean it's client-server and wonderful, right ? So WHY can't they take their heads out of their asses and realize that creating a user account on a mail server for every person who's going to get mail there is stewpid !! FTP is the same ... christ. Create ONE app or combine two so that they make sense. Domains - list them. Users - list them. Passwords - list them. IP and such, fill in the blank. If you want to use nice texty config files, fine. But put them in one place ! Set up relaying, banned, etc. Finished with engines, done. Double-click the goddamned icon or enter the executable's name from a command line. Finished ! Tnis is not rocket science. It's been done in OS/2 for over a decade. I find it hard to believe that Unix is not capable of running applications that are well thought-out. I just think that someone should take these people who are so busy jacking off that they can't see the forest and give them a job which pays inversely by the hour.

Sometimes I can see why Windows is popular. It's a pile of shit but doing simple things in Windows is usually simple.

Just for fun, download the docs for Weasel. It's multithreaded. It has SMTP, POP and IMAP. It has virtual domains. It has authentication. It has all the capabilities I have read about in cyrus and postfix, except that it also runs a terminal window so you can see what the hell it is doing. Separate mailboxes for every user, mail stored as separate files.Filters. It takes about twenty minutes to set it up for around twenty users, two domains, including downloading the damned thing. Written by one person in his spare time. Works great. Why the hell cannot the Great Unix Developers of the free open source community achieve anything this clean and elegant ? (Weasel is also free, by the way. And it's ten years old.)

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porter
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Re: Unix is like a British car

Unread postby porter » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:22 am

hamei wrote:I just think that someone should take these people who are so busy jacking off that they can't see the forest and give them a job which pays inversely by the hour.


Alot of answers in http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/

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squeen
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Unread postby squeen » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:17 am

What Unix Get's Wrong (from above link)
For a design that dates from 1969, it is remarkably difficult to identify design choices in Unix that are unequivocally wrong. There are several popular candidates, but each is still a subject of spirited debate not merely among Unix fans but across the wider community of people who think about and design operating systems.

Unix files have no structure above byte level. File deletion is irrevocable. The Unix security model is arguably too primitive. Job control is botched. There are too many different kinds of names for things. Having a file system at all may have been the wrong choice. We will discuss these technical issues in Chapter 20.

But perhaps the most enduring objections to Unix are consequences of a feature of its philosophy first made explicit by the designers of the X windowing system. X strives to provide “mechanism, not policy”, supporting an extremely general set of graphics operations and deferring decisions about toolkits and interface look-and-feel (the policy) up to application level. Unix's other system-level services display similar tendencies; final choices about behavior are pushed as far toward the user as possible. Unix users can choose among multiple shells. Unix programs normally provide many behavior options and sport elaborate preference facilities.

This tendency reflects Unix's heritage as an operating system designed primarily for technical users, and a consequent belief that users know better than operating-system designers what their own needs are.


This tenet was firmly established at Bell Labs by Dick Hamming[5] who insisted in the 1950s when computers were rare and expensive, that open-shop computing, where customers wrote their own programs, was imperative, because “it is better to solve the right problem the wrong way than the wrong problem the right way”.

-- Doug McIlroy

But the cost of the mechanism-not-policy approach is that when the user can set policy, the user must set policy. Nontechnical end-users frequently find Unix's profusion of options and interface styles overwhelming and retreat to systems that at least pretend to offer them simplicity.

In the short term, Unix's laissez-faire approach may lose it a good many nontechnical users. In the long term, however, it may turn out that this ‘mistake’ confers a critical advantage — because policy tends to have a short lifetime, mechanism a long one. Today's fashion in interface look-and-feel too often becomes tomorrow's evolutionary dead end (as people using obsolete X toolkits will tell you with some feeling!). So the flip side of the flip side is that the “mechanism, not policy” philosophy may enable Unix to renew its relevance long after competitors more tied to one set of policy or interface choices have faded from view.[6]


hamei you are right. Unix has little or no central authority. Linux is the epitomy of choas. We are attracted to SGI system because SGI establish at least a semblance of order on IRIX. But mandated order comes with a price...

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Frapazoid
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Unread postby Frapazoid » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:29 am

I blame the code reuse.

Which is fine and I doubt open source would get anywhere if everyone had to rewrite things they have the source code too. That's just stupid.

But in practice you do end up with

Install Cyrus. Install Perl. Install OpenSSL. Install OpenLDAP. Install MySQL. Install the kitchen sink


type situations, where one program is dependant on a bunch of other programs which are in turn dependant on a bunch of other programs and they all need to be configured...

That's why we have the whole portage, apt, repository type systems - Windows style installers and Mac\NS .apps don't really make sense because here, no program is an island.

Of course when you actually need to configure all these things, not just install them, apt doesn't really help.

Does anyone put their socks in five different drawers ?


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"Chief, look! I learned to make fire! Who knows what we could do with this... We should learn to control it!"

"Ridiculous. How can you justify wasting time and effort on this so-called 'fire' when our children are freezing to death at night?"

LoWeN
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Unread postby LoWeN » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:39 am

Hello,

This is why ldap/openldap exists...
One central catalog of users/groups for all your apps.

@+

LoWeN
UX powered


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