Talos Secure Workstation

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:17 am

Came in today via the debian-powerpc mailing list:

SUBJECT: First Talos-II (POWER9) Benchmarks available

Debian testing via the Phoronix Test Suite:
https://openbenchmarking.org/result/180 ... ALOS2RAP51

The first systems from Raptor should be already shipping:

:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby tingo » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:33 am

We live in interesting times.
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:41 am

johnnym wrote:The first systems from Raptor should be already shipping:


Maybe off topic, but what recent ARM workstations are they referring to? Are there any? I only know of ARM servers, e.g. with Cavium ThunderX2 processors etc..
:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
C O B A L T Qube 2 Qube 3 RaQ RaQ 2 RaQ 4r RaQ XTR

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:01 pm

I imagine they mean people repurposing them as workstations, which I guess is possible. (I wouldn't.)

EDIT: No, actually, I guess there are some. See second reply:

Btw, where the fark did this Twitter embed thing come from? It's obnoxious.

I'm order #8, so I'd better get it soon! (I had to reorder due to a glitch on their end and was on as #24, though.)
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby Dodoid » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:06 am

I looked into a TALOS II a while ago. Seems like a very impressive system, and the "100% free" aspect interests me greatly (I am posting this from a Librebooted ThinkPad T400). Unfortunately cost was a little too high for my liking, and it's not compatible with Qubes, but that point won't be a dealbreaker for most people. I settled on a Librebooted KGPE-D16 with two 16-core Opteron 6282SEs. Interestingly, Coreboot/Libreboot support for the KGPE-D16 was implemented by Raptor Engineering, before either of the TALOS projects. This machine should run Qubes with my Qubreboot script, and firmware-wise it ticks the "100% free" box nicely, though Qubes itself has a few proprietary blobs, I believe. It's also a good deal cheaper, with my complete system (ordered in parts from eBay) coming to around $1200 CAD ($930 USD) or so, making the complete system less than half the price of the TALOS II motherboard alone.

That said, I doubt it will even begin to approach the TALOS in terms of performance, as while I do have 32 cores, I suspect the POWER9 chips are a good deal faster than 7 year old AMD x64 chips. It will be interesting to benchmark my system once all the parts arrive. Of course, it's also a PC, so it loses some "bring back the RISC workstation" cool factor, but I think it's a good way to keep Qubes on Libreboot working given that Qubes 4 requires RVI and IOMMU.
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:53 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:Btw, where the fark did this Twitter embed thing come from? It's obnoxious.

Even moreso when it doesn't work at all if you don't have twitter.com enabled in your Javascript whitelist.

Though I'm torn on deciding whether I hate that it breaks some posting functionality for stupid reasons, or like that it saves me the trouble of even bothering following up when somebody links to a den of anticontent like Twitter.
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:11 am

commodorejohn wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:Btw, where the fark did this Twitter embed thing come from? It's obnoxious.

Even moreso when it doesn't work at all if you don't have twitter.com enabled in your Javascript whitelist.

Which would restore the intended behaviour. I just posted an URL and would have liked to just see the URL. I assume the forum does expand this. Isn't that also true for URLs pointing to Youtube?
:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:39 am

Dodoid wrote:I settled on a Librebooted KGPE-D16 with two 16-core Opteron 6282SEs. Interestingly, Coreboot/Libreboot support for the KGPE-D16 was implemented by Raptor Engineering, before either of the TALOS projects. This machine should run Qubes with my Qubreboot script, and firmware-wise it ticks the "100% free" box nicely, though Qubes itself has a few proprietary blobs, I believe. It's also a good deal cheaper, with my complete system (ordered in parts from eBay) coming to around $1200 CAD ($930 USD) or so, making the complete system less than half the price of the TALOS II motherboard alone.

That said, I doubt it will even begin to approach the TALOS in terms of performance, as while I do have 32 cores, I suspect the POWER9 chips are a good deal faster than 7 year old AMD x64 chips. It will be interesting to benchmark my system once all the parts arrive.

I believe per clock the Bulldozer Opterons (6200 series) are slower than the older K10 Opterons for socket G34 (6100 series) but they can clock higher and can have more "pseudo cores" (see e.g. http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/Bulldozer ... eries.html and Wikipedia about the Bulldozer microarchitecture). 6100 series Opterons are cheap, so you can easily compare performance by swapping CPUs. 6300 Opterons might also be an option for the future, not sure if Piledriver Opterons are faster than Bulldozer ones though. At least they can clock a little higher.

What do you want to use this workstation for, I read in another post that you're not into gaming? I use(d) my xw9400 with two older quad-core K10 Opterons (8393) for gaming, virtualization, emulation, NFS/TFTP services (now done with an Odroid HC1) and other things that need more power. So capabilities are manifold even for an "older" system like the xw9400.
:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
C O B A L T Qube 2 Qube 3 RaQ RaQ 2 RaQ 4r RaQ XTR

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby Dodoid » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:01 pm

I might consider getting some 6100s to test with, since they are largely untested under Libreboot, but 6200s run well and support virtualization without microcode updates, something preferred by Libreboot. That said, since Meltdown/Spectre mean microcode updates may be necessary anyway, the 6300s may become an option for many if they are a few percent less "stallmanny" and willing to load proprietary microcode to avoid known security flaws (this probably includes me). I've heard it put quite as well as "Do you trust AMD in 2011 more than you trust AMD now?".

The main goal for this system, and I admit it's a bit overkill, is to run Qubes 4.0 on Librebootable hardware. Since most Libreboot hardware is on the Core 2 Duo (with no IOMMU or SLAT support), that isn't usually possible, but Qubes 4 is now the latest release version, which means that the 12 month support period for 3.2 is ticking away. For Qubes 4 on Libreboot, you need an Opteron of some sort, since those are the only IOMMU/AMD-Vi+SLAT/RVI CPUs available for Librebootable motherboards. The cheapest option is an ASUS KCMA-D8 with a 4200-series Opteron, which seems to be a perfectly serviceable workstation board, and probably one I would be happy with.

However, the GNU/Linux distro project I am working on on (Kronos last it came up on Nekochan, now kxOS for trademark reasons but that hasn't been widely announced yet), which has up till now been developed on Debian, is considering compiling some components of the underlying system ourselves to meet our free software standards while also fixing a few other things (e.g. removing systemd). I am not the leader of this specific subproject, there is another team member who is working on this, but his computer is very slow (Pentium M I believe) and we are looking for something that will allow us to build big things (e.g. Linux-libre kernel, WebKit, etc) quickly as well as providing general compute resources to project members.

It's because of this (and also because of a degree of "why not") that I opted for the 32 core system. It is, at present, very nearly the fastest Libreboot system available (you could get 6284s if you like spending twice the cost of the rest of your system on CPUs alone for an extra hundred megahertz), and should outlast things like the T400 in terms of usable lifespan, especially for multithreaded tasks like compiling. Should be a good workstation with Qubes, and a good compile/miscellaneous compute server with Debian or whatever we choose to run the server parts on.

For more general server tasks that should not be shut down (this would not always be running, for power consumption reasons) I have three servers in my house, a Mini Indigo with ODROID-XU4 for some general tasks, half a Lenovo IdeaPad (it's missing quite a lot of the non-essential parts) jammed in my ceiling (yes, my ceiling) for some kxOS project member services managed by another kxOS project guy (I may eventually consolidate this with the XU4), and an SGI O2 for testing things (usually D1-related things, since it often has a prototype of some sort in the PCI slot) on IRIX without going downstairs or powering up one of the desksides I keep upstairs.
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:15 am

MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING

It arrives on Friday.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:35 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING

It arrives on Friday.

Congratulations, they've kept you waiting for some time now! Not sure if you already mentioned it, but have you already decided which OS you will use on it?
:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
C O B A L T Qube 2 Qube 3 RaQ RaQ 2 RaQ 4r RaQ XTR

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:43 am

Linux of some sort. We'll see what it comes with, though part of the advantage of this device is being able to build the system from the silicon up, so I would be a lazy sod if I didn't try to at least build the firmware from source and flash it.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby johnnym » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:12 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:Linux of some sort. We'll see what it comes with, though part of the advantage of this device is being able to build the system from the silicon up, so I would be a lazy sod if I didn't try to at least build the firmware from source and flash it.

Hope to read something about this in your blog in the future. :)
:Indigo: :Indy: :O2: :Octane: :Octane2: :O200: = :O200: - :O200: = :O200: (O200 cluster w/2 GIGAchannel cabinets)
[ ( hp ) ] 712/80 c3000 (dead) :hpserv: (J5600) c3700 c3750 c8000 rp2470 rp3440 :rx2600: (rx2620) rx2660 rx4640
| d | i | g | i | t | a | l | AXPpci33 AlphaStation 200 AlphaStation 255 PWS 500au AlphaServer DS20E AlphaServer DS25
C O B A L T Qube 2 Qube 3 RaQ RaQ 2 RaQ 4r RaQ XTR

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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby Shiunbird » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:16 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING MY TALOS IS SHIPPING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING IT'S HAPPENING

It arrives on Friday.


OMG MAN!
Legend!

I'm getting one as soon as I can afford - I hope I will make it. =)
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Re: Talos Secure Workstation

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:40 pm

johnnym wrote:
ClassicHasClass wrote:Linux of some sort. We'll see what it comes with, though part of the advantage of this device is being able to build the system from the silicon up, so I would be a lazy sod if I didn't try to at least build the firmware from source and flash it.

Hope to read something about this in your blog in the future. :)


Oh, you will!
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...


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