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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:15 pm 
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the EU court of justice ruled today that:
Quote:
“The first sale in the EU of a copy of a computer program by the copyright holder or with his consent exhausts the right of distribution of that copy in the EU. A rightholder who has marketed a copy in the territory of a Member State of the EU thus loses the right to rely on his monopoly of exploitation in order to oppose the resale of that copy… The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website.”

read in full here http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2012-07/cp120094en.pdf
So far as I can tell this makes it unambiguously legal to sell any computer software you own for which you have an unlimited usage license in the EU, such as IRIX CDs. Of course it is still up to neko to choose to allow or not selling them on his site but those of us in the EU can go about this without concern now.


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Unread postPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:18 pm 
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It's an interesting decision, although I don't think it will change the policy here on Nekochan.

Also, I'm not a lawyer, but it's possible that you may be interpreting the ruling a little bit more broadly than it is written. For example, unless I am misreading it (quite possible), the decision prevents breaking up larger licenses into smaller ones. So, if a company buys a global license to a product (like the right to install on any system the company owns), it cannot later sell individual copies on the secondary market - it can only sell the full, global license on the secondary market, and it has to remove/destroy all copies of the software in its possession at the time of resale. Since the most recent versions of IRIX are licensed for use on particular machines, might it not mean that the product is the combination of machine + operating system? If so, by selling without hardware, you are splitting the license, which perhaps is not legal after this decision. Conversely, might it then be illegal to sell covered hardware without the associated software? Again, I'm not a lawyer, but my experience has been that often the consequences of even simple-sounding legal judgments can be complex and difficult to predict, so it may be wise to see how this decision translates to accepted business practice.


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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:23 am 
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I'm still waiting for some lawyer to clarify this - I read this yesterday on several computer news websites and I'm still not sure what are the consequences of this. Will it cancel SGI's policy to "expire" the IRIX license if the hardware is sold? Will it make all Autodesk products transferable? Will I be able to trade my iPhone or Steam apps?

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:30 am 
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GL1zdA wrote:
I'm still waiting for some lawyer to clarify this - I read this yesterday on several computer news websites and I'm still not sure what are the consequences of this. Will it cancel SGI's policy to "expire" the IRIX license if the hardware is sold? Will it make all Autodesk products transferable? Will I be able to trade my iPhone or Steam apps?


You should be able to trade steam games as it is... https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -ETSG-5417

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:32 am 
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zmttoxics wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
I'm still waiting for some lawyer to clarify this - I read this yesterday on several computer news websites and I'm still not sure what are the consequences of this. Will it cancel SGI's policy to "expire" the IRIX license if the hardware is sold? Will it make all Autodesk products transferable? Will I be able to trade my iPhone or Steam apps?


You should be able to trade steam games as it is... https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -ETSG-5417

Steam wrote:
Does Steam Trading mean I can sell my used games?

No, only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once the Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won’t be able to trade it again.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:34 am 
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GL1zdA wrote:
zmttoxics wrote:
GL1zdA wrote:
I'm still waiting for some lawyer to clarify this - I read this yesterday on several computer news websites and I'm still not sure what are the consequences of this. Will it cancel SGI's policy to "expire" the IRIX license if the hardware is sold? Will it make all Autodesk products transferable? Will I be able to trade my iPhone or Steam apps?


You should be able to trade steam games as it is... https://support.steampowered.com/kb_art ... -ETSG-5417

Steam wrote:
Does Steam Trading mean I can sell my used games?

No, only games that have been bought as a gift, and thus have never been played, can be traded. Once the Steam Gift is opened and added to your game library, you won’t be able to trade it again.

Ahh, there it is. I wasn't 100% on it since I haven't tried it yet. Noted.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:00 am 
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why operating system media should not be tradeable? i bought aix, hpux, tru64 whatever cd's i want, its just a matter of, if someone wants to spend the money and the other party wants to trade. who would ask after this legacy software crap...

btw...the mentioned adjudication has nothing to do with distribution of antiquated software media, so sell your irix cd's or keep on hanging out with it or go and donate them to the local retirement home where they actually belong, i doubt someone gives a shit about.

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Last edited by yetanother**ixuser on Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:01 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:53 am 
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I think this reads as:

If you've got a copy of the software, you can sell it.

IRIX licences as far as I know are tied to the machine itself, so if you have media but no machine, then the media itself has no licence.
It's just a marketed copy of the software and as such the original marketer has no rights to prevent it's further sale.
Yes, I have a few bits of IRIX software with licence keys on them and also expired licences so the licence on that is not saleable because it is also tied to a specific machine.
But also suspect you could easily sell any software media even without a licence as a media pack. Microsoft do that. You can buy Windows server media without a licence and it's stupid cheap.

I've got more than a few bits of original software that have no licence key on them and as such you can just install. They are also an original marketed 'copy' of the software so I can sell that on.

Unless a piece of software for IRIX has a specific licence attached, I would assume it is an extension of the machine licence to that software and as such you are simply selling media, not the licence.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:47 pm 
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This probably won't affect IRIX, since IRIX licenses for most of the machines are transferable (after 2004 SGI moved to a "poof" model).

What this probably affects is Sun-style "poof" licensing, where the Solaris license expires upon transfer of the machine (and does not remain with the original buyer - the license was for a specific owner/machine/OS version combination). Now that Oracle has moved to a "service agreement required for license" approach that may be moot.

OpenVMS and a number of the other proprietary OSes have allowed transfer ... for a fee. Several hundred dollars for a free VAXstation 3100 doesn't pencil out economically for most hobbyists, but may fit the requirements of the ruling. Thankfully there's the hobbyist program there - which hopefully isn't affected.

This might put MS in an interesting situation. Their OEM licenses are very restrictive, to the point where it seems to be designed to prevent people from being able to utilize their rights. Per MS, the license is tied to the mainboard, but then again you also need to have the authenticity sticker, which is tied to the case. Just for kicks they've started something where you have to have the original media as well, and sucks to be you if that happens to be a recovery partition on a drive that has died. Yeah, I'd love to see them slam MS with something related to this ruling.

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Unread postPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:16 pm 
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I suspect that the site founder wants to encourage the depth of technical discussion and prevent it descending into a warez and free-for-all site like other chans so I suspect the policy won't change. So all this is academic but it doesn't prevent you discussing it off site with people who are here..

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Unread postPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:25 am 
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Indeed. I totally agree.
Trading on this forum has always been a pleasant experience and I am in no way suggesting that the policies change.

It's good though as it adds a slightly less grey area to the trading of IRIX CDs in the EU.

!m!

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:05 am 
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maaarcooose wrote:
Indeed. I totally agree.
Trading on this forum has always been a pleasant experience and I am in no way suggesting that the policies change.

It's good though as it adds a slightly less grey area to the trading of IRIX CDs in the EU.

!m!


I'm not sure if it ever was very grey, at least for the pre -'04 machines. The license goes with the machine, and the media can be transferred when the license transfers.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:14 pm 
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I believe in many EU countries it was already (always?) allowed to sell licenses an/or media, regardless of what the EULA says. If an EULA contradicts the law, the law wins. Of course the restrictions Josehill mentions apply.

There have been court cases in Germany about (re)selling MS licenses to confirm this.

Since this site is not based in the EU, and the majority of members are outside the EU, I wouldn't expect any changes to the policies here.

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Unread postPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:34 am 
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jan-jaap wrote:
Since this site is not based in the EU, and the majority of members are outside the EU, I wouldn't expect any changes to the policies here.

That's probably a really important point you've made. Things could still get quite complicated in the jurisdiction where the site is based, costing Nekonoko $$$ huge legal fees just to sort out which courts/laws have jurisdiction: those where the site is based, where the seller is based, where the buyer is based, etc. Even if the trading is legal where ever the buyer and seller live.

It was always my understanding that the policies were in place to avoid having to deal with those sort of legal issues.

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