Nekochan Net

I started a topic in the fireflop dev forum ... if you'd like to see fireflop 3 (it really is better) running on Irix, we better kick some useless developer butt. No gtk1, who do these buttbreath misbegotten products of the misogynist matings of three generations of diseased chimpanzees think they are ?

http://groups.google.com/group/mozilla. ... fox/topics

============

Edit : okay guys .... beyond our normal bickering, I think this is something important.

Firefox is sort of our lifeline to the real world. Without a browser the usefulness of all SGI boxes will be drastically reduced. Yes we can use Dillo but let's get serious. One bright spot in our recent lives has been the way Irix is so well supported in the gnu software area due to the excellent work by some people here. We don't have everything that Linux has but we do have most everything good that Linux has. SGI boxes may be a little slow but the newer ones are still eminently useful.

What has just happened will also impact users of any other hardware that's a bit older, too. Sun, HP, IBM, even Linux with processors under a gigahoitz will be negatively impacted by this Mozilla Corp bonehead move.

Now we have a problem. I don't begrudge people who like gtk2. If they are willing to exchange speed for the pretty fonts that is entirely their choice. But in realworld experience, gtk2 apps on Irix boxes are pretty exasperating. Giving people the choice is the traditional open source method. Removing gtk1 from Firefox means that we are now effectively disbarred from future browser development. They didn't have to do this. They chose to fuck us.

The response to my outraged squawk was "This is an open process and the community ... bla bla bla." Also "our three major targets ..." and so on. Tillin9 is right, these people are corporate scum. Who in their right mind would equate the "community" of six developers with the "community" of users ? Who checks in every day to make sure some dork isn't removing the systems we need to operate ? Trust ? Yeah right. All these people seem to want to do is "compete" with Internet Explorer. If that's all Firefox is going to be, to hell with them. I went thru one set of browser wars which took no consideration of users and if that's what they want, this time I'll be in the Exploder camp. If they do not care about the enthusiasts, the people who put them where they are, then they can rot in Hell forever.

Okay la, I fired into the brush and one of them foolishly fired back revealing his position. A bunch of noise in their newsgroup would be good but even better, imo, would be a concerted attack on a weak point. Mike Beltzner is the Mozilla Corporation's "phenomonoligist." Typical, some crappy made-up cutesy-wutesy title to make the janitor look like a PhD. The guy claims to be concerned about the "user experience" - well, if the damned product becomes three times slower, I fail to see where cuter buttons improves said "user experience." Other than being a total idiot he puts up a good pretense of being human. Let's find out ...

Propaganda :

http://fsoss.senecac.on.ca/2007/present ... ationID=29

more propaganda :

http://conferences.oreillynet.com/cs/we ... _spkr/3476

His weblog

http://www.beltzner.ca/mike/

Something strikingly repulsive here is that people who smilingly disenfranchise entire classes of users still get to give lectures on product management and usability. No wonder the world is such a mess.

The best is yet to come

beltzner@mozilla.com

Proposal :

I think this is actually important to all of us using older hardware. If we want a browser which works on today's Internet then we better scream, scream now and scream loud. The trend is to screw us with fatter, more sluggish, more crap-laden junk that makes old boxes stagger until we give up on using them. This is true for SGI, Sun, HP, and IBM. Even the older x86 units that one might enjoy become mostly shelf decorations if you can't use them on the Internet.

This is a turning point. No gtk1 means a big hit in performance. A big hit. If we allow these jerks to ignore us this way then we can expect to see more and more of the same in future. Kiss off half the fun of the hobby. My fuel is not overjoyed with Firefox but it does work. Octanes are usable. The O2, well ... still can in a pinch. Should Firefox 2 be the end of the line for all of us who like older hardware, just because they don't feel like accomodating the people who promoted this browser for years ? You know that Windows users didn't make Firefox what it is. You know that Intel doesn't give a rat's ass about old hardware enthusiasts. You know that no one in mainstream commercial computing gave a crap about Firefox during its long and painful infancy. It was us, the geeks and kooks and oddball hobbyists and open-source fruitcakes who made it possible for Firefox to exist. And the thanks we get now is a ton of non-fragrant shit dropped on our heads while they mouth platitudes about community and open source success and all the rest of the self-satisfied hot air.

I've slammed the guy three times so far. He actually appears to be a decent human being but that's mostly a disguise. If we want to have a browser in future, we can have no mercy. Get out the Ak-47's and go in firing. If the thousand members of nekochan took off our gloves we could make an impact. Seems unlikely, but 500 ? Also unlikely ... but even one hundred people from here and anyone from any other old-computer sites could make a goodly impact in Mikey's mailbox. At least he'd have to wake up and admit that there is more than one frothing enraged kook who's pissed at the actions Mozilla Corporation is taking. Hypocritical bastards

Probably they will ignore us and we can consider ourselves royally screwed but if we don't try, then that's gonna be it. Forget about browsing the internet. Go out and buy a new Dell if you want to use Firefox 3. (Yes, it is a vast improvement. It doesn't crash when you have a lot of windows and tabs open, for one thing.) Hey ! New Dells come with Exploder 7 ... why bother with Fireflop ?

If we can't force them to consider our needs, then we are toast. And now, somewhere near the beginning, is going to be our only chance. Write now and write often if you want to have a better browser in Irix. Write now and write often if you want to use the Internet in Irix. Or just write once and write short, but if we don't write and do it now, kiss off our future.

Even if you just take two minutes out of your busy kanoodling schedule and write something akin to :

=======

Dear Mr Beltzner.

I am a hobbyist using Firefox. I have been a long-time user and supporter of Firefox. I truly resent being left out in the cold by the exclusion of gtk1 support from the newest version. It would be only right and just to rethink this decision.

thank you so much

Joe Schmo

========

Several hundred of these in the famous phenomenologist's mailbox should get some attention.

again, the face behind the "user experience" at Faceless Mozilla Corporation :

beltzner@mozilla.com

Bumped.

I'm not the right person to evaluate the impact of the dropping of GTK1 support in FF3, and I'm not sure if hamei's soft diplomacy is necessarily the best way to resolve the issue as it impacts IRIX and the Mozilla deevlopers, particularly FF on older boxen. On the other hand, hamei does raise a good point about the impact of browser choices on the viability of a platform.

Can anyone with the necessary technical background (and benchmarking experience) chime in to help to clarify the situation?

I can accept that IRIX's browser doomsday will arrive someday, and that will have a seriously negative effect on the hobbyist community, but when will that be (hopefully still pretty far down the road)?

Is GTK1 the key issue? How much of a dog is GTK2? I can't say that I've noticed monstrous differences between GTK1 FF and GTK2 FF on my 400 MHz O2, but I also haven't spent much time thinking about it, either.

What's the future for FF2, i.e. when is it EOL'd? (Six months after FF3 official release, IIRC - when's that? Q1/Q2 2008? So that means new FF2 releases through perhaps the end of 2008, which means we'll probably have another 1.5 or perhaps 2 years of reasonably current browsing, right?)

Any input? (Let's try to keep it objective and avoid flame throwing.)

PS. I notice that I rarely do anything in MacOS 8 or 9 any longer, even though in some ways those older OSes still have richer application sets than OS X. The reason I don't bother with OS 8/9 much is mostly because the lack of a decent browser substantially degrades the utility of Classic MacOS as a general purpose system. I also notice that FF3 drops support for Windows 95, 98, ME and Mac OS X v10.2, all of which presumably have a larger installed based than IRIX.

right-oh...

[(hi)tech buzzwords are out of control]


ditto

Although I'm not using any of my SGI machines ATM, I've sent a mail to Mr. B. I hope it can help to community ...

Another solution is dropping the firebug and porting the WebKit to IRIX. Maybe it's too heavy task for this community, I don't know

Maybe we won't have a choice. No browser will absolutely kill these boxes as daily drivers.

Agreed.

Wanted to find a copy of Opera 6 for my 7600 but it's nowhere to be found.
The only usable browser on OS 9 is iCab, still, it's barely usable.
My NDS does a better browsing job than the 7600, on which I may load Linux to get a more modern browser one day.

Out of curiosity, I wonder if GTK2 could be massaged to make it speedier? Different set of developers, perhaps if they are approached with a bit of persuasion and flattery they'd be inclined to bump up the importance of speed.

"We love your software, but on lower-spec computers GTK2 crawls. Since OSS is wonderful for developing countries, where they are less likely to have the most recent equipment, as well as other computer hobbyists that have limited speed machines, is there any way that you could work on improved speed in future GTK2 releases?"

Remember, IRIX 5.1 was pretty bad, but by 5.3 SGI had straightened things out. There's still hope.

I'm not surprised they are dropping gtk1 support. Sad, though.

WamCom (http://wamcom.org/) still works for me.

I sent an e-mail, but honestly I'm not the biggest Firefox fan.

Why can't people here just use Konqueror on IRIX? Also, anybody try the gtk-qt engine?

That thought crossed my mind. Is that what you are using? How well does it work on older systems (i.e. less powerful than 200 MHz O2)?

Also what about Kazehakase?

Uh... I got a response asking where all this mail was coming from. What actually surprised me is that googling Firefox 3.0 gtk1 IRIX doesn't immediately lead right here.

Was it just Mike's response to your post in the google group that made you target him or is he actually the guy to complain to?

Heh heh Like I said, the fool revealed his position. Now he should get absolutely slammed with return fire.

This person is the one in charge of "usability" and gives lectures on "listening to the community." Seems like an appropriate target. The person who proudly calls himself a "phenomenologist" and claims to be working for the betterment of the "community" should be called to account when they one-sidedly crap on everyone with older hardware and anyone running Win95/8/ME as well as some versions of OS X. I mean, just how difficult is it to keep gtk1 as an option ? Since he is so concerned with usability, maybe redrawing windows in less than half an hour could be considered part of his job description ?

More mail ! More mail ! Put both this "usability" guy's feet into the fire !! We can't burn twenty people but let's find the weak point, then break thru and overrun their line !

On a more serious note, I think this is actually important to us and to people running other old hardware. The Mozilla jerks only exist because for years they were the sole reasonable browser for those of us disenfranchised by Internet Exploder. Now they've grown to the point where they feel they can be commercially competitive with Microsoft and to hell with us. They only exist because of the word of mouth from us non-mainstream hobbyists. People like foetz and neko made them what they are. They owe us. I don't know if we can make them grow a conscience but let's see if we can at least make them look their own treachery in the face. I want this guy to see Benedict Arnold in the mirror when he shaves. Keep those cards and letters coming !

SAQ - they are putting more effort into the icons for Windows Vista than they are worrying about performance. Educational experiences in the ducking stool for all the Mozilla developers would seem to be the appropriate reward.

Yes, Whenever I need a browser on my SGIs I use Konqueror. I think my Debian install has Firefox (Iceweasel), but I didn't bother in any IRIX installs. I can't really answer your question as my slowest machine is a 200 Mhz O2. On such hardware using Konqueror is possible, but not pleasant. Granted running just about anything modern on that hardware isn't pleasant. On my other machines, 600 O2, 400 Mhz Octane2, it runs just fine.

Hamei, I do agree that Mozilla is neglecting its community roots, but do try to contain the vitriol. I can certainly empathize with the "mad as hell and not gonna take it" mentality, but some of the posts above and comments made elsewhere are not going to make any progress.
After following this for awhile the major issue here seems to be the GTK devs dropping support for GTK1 and GTK2 running slow on some platforms. I think contacting the GTK developers might be a more productive idea. Since it already runs on IRIX, there isn't too much work to do, and the devs might have some ideas to help make it run a tad faster with doable work from people here. While I'm not a big fan of GNOME either, I must admit besides Miguel de Icaza, most people in the project really do care about hobbyists and open source.