Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

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Geoman
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby Geoman » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:50 am

kjaer wrote:http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_first_100_years.htm


A further symptom of our exponential hangover is bloat. As soon as a system shows signs of performance, developers will add enough abstraction to make it borderline unusable. Software forever remains at the limits of what people will put up with. Developers and designers together create overweight systems in hopes that the hardware will catch up in time and cover their mistakes.

We complained for years that browsers couldn't do layout and javascript consistently. As soon as that got fixed, we got busy writing libraries that reimplemented the browser within itself, only slower.

It's 2014, and consider one hot blogging site, Medium. On a late-model computer it takes me ten seconds for a Medium page (which is literally a formatted text file) to load and render. This experience was faster in the sixties.

The web is full of these abuses, extravagant animations and so on, forever a step ahead of the hardware, waiting for it to catch up.
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby Y888099 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:38 am

umm, Chrome on XP says 600MB of ram for browsing pages in six tabs.
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby guardian452 » Tue Mar 28, 2017 9:53 am

Geoman wrote:
kjaer wrote:http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_first_100_years.htm


A further symptom of our exponential hangover is bloat. As soon as a system shows signs of performance, developers will add enough abstraction to make it borderline unusable. Software forever remains at the limits of what people will put up with. Developers and designers together create overweight systems in hopes that the hardware will catch up in time and cover their mistakes.

We complained for years that browsers couldn't do layout and javascript consistently. As soon as that got fixed, we got busy writing libraries that reimplemented the browser within itself, only slower.

It's 2014, and consider one hot blogging site, Medium. On a late-model computer it takes me ten seconds for a Medium page (which is literally a formatted text file) to load and render. This experience was faster in the sixties.

The web is full of these abuses, extravagant animations and so on, forever a step ahead of the hardware, waiting for it to catch up.


I have to call BS at some point. Medium pages open practically instantly on an ipad, less than two seconds at least. And my windows laptop (chrome). And my sony smartphone. And my old windows laptop at work.

Maybe back in 2014?
Maybe without an ad-blocker?
Maybe with a slow internet like 3g in the sticks?
But not for me...

And yes, hardware is cheap, and programmers are expensive. The fallacy falls apart when the programmer is making code that will be used by more than one person. For example:

http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?st ... _Lives.txt
"You know, I've been thinking about it. How many people are going to be using the Macintosh? A million? No, more than that. In a few years, I bet five million people will be booting up their Macintoshes at least once a day."

"Well, let's say you can shave 10 seconds off of the boot time. Multiply that by five million users and that's 50 million seconds, every single day. Over a year, that's probably dozens of lifetimes. So if you make it boot ten seconds faster, you've saved a dozen lives. That's really worth it, don't you think?"

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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby commodorejohn » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:53 am

guardian452 wrote:I have to call BS at some point. Medium pages open practically instantly on an ipad, less than two seconds at least. And my windows laptop (chrome). And my sony smartphone. And my old windows laptop at work.

Maybe back in 2014?
Maybe without an ad-blocker?
Maybe with a slow internet like 3g in the sticks?
But not for me...

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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby Shiunbird » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:15 pm

kjaer wrote:http://idlewords.com/talks/web_design_first_100_years.htm


This was a great read, thanks for sharing.

Internet is bloat, I'm starting to lose my patience.
The home page of the main internet portals I browse look very similar in appearance and functionality to the same ones I accessed when I started browsing the Internet in 1997, with two exceptions:

- client resolution was always assumed to be 640x480
- videos were the size of a thumbnail

Yes, some functionality is new, but damn, it's all text and pictures, with the eventual video, it should not eat hundreds of megabytes of RAM to render and display and not download dozens of MBs. Often in my country, pages load all scripts and elements, and then add an overlay on the top to hide them. WTF.

After I started to browse the web sometimes with this: http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm it's much better but still...
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:18 pm

Medium pages open practically instantly on an ipad, less than two seconds at least.


So there's no point in optimizing further?
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby guardian452 » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:03 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:
Medium pages open practically instantly on an ipad, less than two seconds at least.


So there's no point in optimizing further?


Nonsense. It should open in less than one second. On a watch!

Just saying, they've come a long way in 3 years.

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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby commodorejohn » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:16 am

guardian452 wrote:Just saying, they've come a long way in 3 years.

Or, in accordance with Moore's Law, they've doubled the load imposed by their page rendering, but the increasing speed of hardware in three years has nevertheless yielded a fourfold reduction in effective loading time :P
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Re: Hardware is Cheap, Programmers are Expensive

Unread postby cybercow » Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:15 pm

I was once on a conference something arround 2013'ish, and there was a team from PayPal that claimed they are experimenting with at that time relatively new Node.js, and claimed they are replacing a team of 20 Java developers with 2 - 3 JavaScript guys (taken from the Java stack) doing the same thing. Now that was a surprise. Heard that i did addopt Node.js at least as my second choice when that service must go online fast and without trouble.


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