Nekochan Net

Official Chat Channel: #nekochan // irc.nekochan.net
It is currently Wed Apr 23, 2014 8:52 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Forum rules


Any posts concerning pirated software or offering to buy/sell/trade commercial software are subject to removal.



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9315
skywriter wrote:
Perhaps you have forgotten than the only reasons we are dealing with China is because the cost of goods is much cheaper than we can produce them.

This is wrong in so many ways but living in the US, you'll never see them. Not until it's too late, anyhow. And the US has a serious hubris problem. I mean a serious problem.

Trying to keep this down under 100 pages but ...

There is no rational reason that products from China have to be cheaper - or in fact, proof that they are cheaper than American-made goods. This stuff about "American labor is too expensive" is total crap. I haven't looked in a couple years but as of, say, 2010 American and German labor were at the top of the scale in dollars of product produced per dollar spent on wages. China was down at 83rd. This means, in short, that American labor is cheaper than Chinese labor by an order of magnitude. Or several orders of magnitude, if you want to get technical.

As the owner of a small company in the US for twenty-eight years, I can tell you what killed me. First, rent. Rent quadrupled over a period of ten years. Housing ... over the same period of time, an okay (crummy cheapo, actually) house where I lived went from $65,000 to $450,000 to $500,000 to $650,000. Minimum. I could not believe that anyone would pay $695,000 for that interesting but crappy rundown shack that we bought in 1972 for $59,000 but it's a matter of record. Something is wrong here. A crummy condo for $250,000 ... and oh yes, insurance and medical and California sales taxes went from 4% to 9% and state income tax occurred and the people at the Board of Equalization (resale taxes) went out of their way to lie, cheat and steal. I had the local old lady bureaucrat so pissed she got in her car and came to my place to browbeat me. I won anyway :)

The essence of this part of the equation is that Kapitalism moved money from the hands of the many to the hands of the few; there was too much money in yuppy hands and the latte-sipping scum of the earth took a liking to where I lived. I got squished. My case was extreme but this same pattern has happened all over the US. Prices for real property in the US are ridiculous. They bear no connection to reality. They are like shares in Faceblob, a giant scam with the end goal of transferring all the wealth into a few hands. The successful end goal, I might say.

Another way in which you are out of date : once upon a time the US had manufacturing expertise. We had a lot of companies which were a hundred years old, which didn't make much money but paid their employees decent wages and provided a skilled workforce and decent lives. Pride in workmanship. Not skilled as in "I took three semesters of this in college", skilled as in they actually knew what they were doing. Same thing in computing - look at the companies in the sevenites and compare to google. Ha ha ha. Google, a fucking ad agency. These companies were the backbone of the middle class.

Unfortunately, starting in the late seventies, these companies became the target for what was then called corporate raiders. You take a hundred year old funky company that employs 2,500 people and runs by eighteenth-century methods - things like, they pay their bills on time instead of screwing their vendors out of every single god-damned motherfucking nickel they can (make that money work for us !), they treat their employees like human beings, they actually put money aside for retirement funds instead of "investing" in the stock market and hoping that shell game will come up 35 red, they had some sense of civic consciousness even when they aren't getting a tax break for their supposed philanthropy, you know, old-fashioned stuff. And oh yeah, they happen to own six blocks of downtown Cincinnati that they bought in 1880 for thirty-seven bucks.

So Kirk Kerkorian, Carl Icahn, Bill Agee, and several hundred others saw the backbone of the middle class as ripe fruit for their picking. Market cap low, assets high. And pick it they did. Over the next ten or fifteen years these raiders / venture capitalists dismantled the middle class. Gone. It ain't coming back. You guys can sell each other life insurance and upsize the fries now forever because the Banes and Kerkorians and Icahns and Romneys have dismantled your country. It's all in their bank accounts now. Unless you slit their throats, it's not coming back.

Now, a couple of things happened simultaneously and fed off each other : China realized a long time ago that they had to industrialize or forever be someone else's slaves. So they did what "economists" in the US sneered at : they built infrastructure. Large-scale infrastructure. Rail, ports, ships, steel, all that old-time rust-belt crap that the US sneers at. Ha ha ha, look at that dumb-fuck Commie government, pissing their money away on big state-owned projects ! Communism never works, they can never compete with us laissez-faire free market kapitalists ! Just look, we've got Alan Greenspan, the Wizard of Finance ! We've got CDO's with 800% roi, those dumbos are putting their money into steel mills and shipyards, ha ha ha ! They can be our houseboys while we roll in cash !

Funny. Between the phony dotcom shit and then the phony housing boom and the phony Wall Street boom, over the next twenty years the US pissed away all its savings and knowledge and skills. Unless you think that losing hundreds of billions of dollars on fraudulent derivatives is a valuable skill, anyhow. Pretty incredible to me, pissed away everything meaningful that the US had in a mere thirty years for what ? Horseshit. Pure stupid fantasy-driven horseshit. "We're going to get rich on financial services !" yeah right. Finance (as played by the kapitalists) is the most worthless function in any economy ever. All it does, every single time, is destroy the society. Every single god-damned time. Every single g-d mofo time. Will you morons ever get that through your brainless Down's Syndrome neanderthal skulls ?

Back to the concurrent historical waves ... by this time China had developed a pretty good (useless rust-belt) infrastructure. Also by this time the majority of old-time laidback marginally profitable companies that made up the heart of the American economy had either been destroyed or were in the hands of kapitalists who knew nothing about the businesses (an MBA can operate any business ! Yeah, just like I can drive an ocean liner because I once took a class in it, with a real simulator !) but they sure as hell knew how to operate a spreadsheet. Do a joint venture, China gives a five year no-tax deal, Foxconn operates the factories, Apple suddenly has no responsibilities except to collect the profits. Yay ! Aren't we smart !

Uh, no. Apple now has nothing. No plants, no people, no manufacturing expertise, no nothing. The day Foxconn decides to retail those products ion the US for twenty percent under Apple prices is two days before all those loyal Appple fans skedaddle. Hey, it's a free market !

This happened everywhere. Most American "manufacturers" are not manufacturers anymore. They are suits who don't know shit except how to collect the big money for themselves. I could list the proofs but promised to get this in under a hundred pages.

The fact that the middle class economic system was being dismantled was covered up by the concurrent fraudulent housing boom. But now that the housing fraud has collapsed and there are no more real jobs for middle america, youse guys got some deep shit to wade through. Worse still, you all seem to be living in that fantasyland. "More stimulus !" Stimulate what ? Put up 100,000 McDonald's ? You already tore down everything of value in the country. Hey ho, way to go Ohio. "More tax breaks for the rich !" Yeah, that'll work. Just like it did before.

Quote:
Specifically the general unregulated environment causes enormous environmental impact,

That's basically horse crap and has been for over a decade. Ja, there's lots of places where people cheat but I lived in the US, too. Love Canal ? Thalidomide ? China should have done better but it's not what you read in the Times, either. I could show you photos of all the pollution control stuff a friend had to put in a new factory down south - a sweater factory. Soap and water they had to deal with :) but still, they had to put it in, a lot of it. This was ten years ago. And the wingers in the US are hell-bent for leather on dismantling any environmental safeguards you have anyhow. Fracking, anyone ? Dismantle CARB ? List the real ingredients on food ? hahahahaha.

Quote:
As for the imagined behavior of your canonical American businessman in China, what do you expect from a purchasing agent anyway? They're not the brightest bulbs in the bunch wherever they come from.

Just one example - I have dozens. Head of Abbot Laboratories - not a p/a, the head guy. Wife is fucking everything that slithers. She posts on all the foreigner bulletin boards using an assumed name but ... Anyway, she's snotty and stuck up and too ugly even for me to give it a shot. Everything goes along fine (more or less, depending on whether you are her husband or not I guess) until the American "engineer" at Caterpillar she is screwing gets caught by his wife. Wife is Japanese, not stupid so instead of making a family fuss she gets revenge. She takes the phone photos and starts sending them unsolicited to people she knows will react badly. Mayhem. Sweaty dishevelled unflattering sex photos (why do people do that, by the way ? It doesn't seem smart to me) all over the internet - wife of the head of Abbot. China is the very home of gossip and the human flesh search. Do you think every single company Abbot was dealing with wasn't aware of this ? He was the talk of the town for six months and probably didn't even know it. Probably had a green place mat, green chopsticks, green napkins at every dinner he went to, ha ha :) This is the Head Guy for Abbot Laboratories in all of China. Pharmaceuticals, one of the areas where the US claims to have some expertise, some technology, something we can actually sell. Ha. Chinese people are more than a little bit concerned with appearances. All the Chinese players will see the name Abbot and think "Green Hat Pharmaceuticals" for a long long time.

From top to bottom, Sky. Top to bottom.

If you need more stories I got 'em. Plenty :)

About p/a's not being so bright, you're absolutely correct. So why do the brilliant American companies refuse to hire any people who actually have a clue ? Maybe because they don't want to hear the truth ? Plausible deniability ?

Here's another little clue for y'all : the "they need our technology" schtick ? No, they don't . China currently prefers to buy from Germany. In 9 cases out of 10 they realize that Germany actually has technoloogy. In general, German companies aren't run by a bunch of finance-type scumbags. They have a clue.

In the few cases that the US still does have something to offer (GE aircraft engines, for example) they simply hold out the carrot and the greed-ridden American executives come running in their private jets. "You want our technology ? Sure ! Sure ! Give us three good-looking quarters and you can have anything you want !" German companies are not that stupid.

Quote:
Besides, why isnt the supplier speaking English anyway, they're the supplier! Oh, yes I forgot, that would cost money to train these Chinese people.

Why the fuck should they ? This is their country. You came here for the cheap prices. The language is your problem, not theirs.

Quote:
Can't have that, a peasant saved is a peasant earned!

AMERICAN companies are the useless pieces of shit that absolutely refuse to pay even a nickel for quality control. I've been there. I've told people "52% of these parts are out of tolerance" and the answer ? Every single time ? "Well, we need them now to fill this order so ..."

Sky, sorry, but this is a truth ; American companies are shit. S-H-I-T Every single piece of the poor-quality Chinese goods problem can be traced directly back to the American company that refused to do incoming inspection, refused to do quality control, refused to listen to anything except "Wow, we're going to get these parts for twenty cents each !" I have sat there and listened to these stupid sons of bitches rationalize away the wrong materials in a product because they wanted the "low cost" and weren't going to listen to anything that countered their moronic fucking fantasy. People have been killed that I know of because of this (if the victims hired a translator they could have got ten times as much in the law suit) but did they care ? Hell no. Ten bucks. Kapitalism.

Dickwads. Worthless total fucking loser dickwads - and they are running your country.

Quote:
I'm just waiting for Brazil to finally to come to the table and undercut China. Dont forget there's always Africa someday. By that time we'll be drowning in pollution from low cost manufacturing anyway, so who cares.


Here's the funniest part : y'all keep telling yourselves this. But first, no other "low cost" countries have the infrastructure. All those wasted big projects by the stupid commie state-owned sector actually have a purpose.

Second, all the equipment is here now. Small secret - it can't be moved. Cannot. C-A-N N-O-T Once it comes in, it never goes out. It's part of the registered capital. Can't be moved. Period.

So if y'all want to walk away and leave all these factories to the joint venture partners and middle management that you trained (gotta localize the management ! gotta localize the management !) then be China's guest. I doubt that they'll even thank you, though. And with the cost of all these factories being free, thank you so much Seagate Mattell GM Dell HP Younameit, youse gonna have a hard time competing on price.

btw, where will you be getting hard drives for the next three years while Seagate tries to open factories in the jungle ? or maybe Mexico would be better. Lots of people would love to be beheaded with their corpse left on the highway. I'd be rushing right down there.

Oh yeah. If you think that retailing is harder than making, you've got a big surprise coming. A great big fat one.

the US has fucked itself. Hubris, greed, and stupidity. Will be interesting to watch ......


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:19 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:12 pm
Posts: 2725
Location: Kentucky, USA
Excellent post, hamei. As an outsider living here for almost 9 years now I'll agree with most of your sentiments. I'm not sure if you've heard any of the advertisements for mail-order MBAs on the radio here, from some big and respected universities, too. (Earn your MBA in just 6 months! Call today!) But right here:
hamei wrote:
List the real ingredients on food ? hahahahaha.
I think the food system is one of the biggest problems in this country right now. FDA is in bed with the pesticide/herbicide/fertilizer people. Weeds and herbicides are in an arms race and they are busy engineering the crops to be ever more robust. Nobody gives a rats ass about the environmental impact of all these chemicals. GMO crops are licensed, and you can be sued for intellectual property theft if they turn up on your non-GMO farm next door (it happens all the time).

But the worst of it is the food itself. We've got strawberries bigger than your fist, and they don't even taste like strawberries anymore. They don't taste like much of anything, really. You are what you eat..

_________________
Image (8x3.0g) Image (2x1.4g) Image (vaio fit)
Previously: :Octane: :Octane: :Octane: :O2: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Onyx:

"The Barbecue Ghost and Fernando Torres are friends."


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:22 am
Posts: 3097
Location: living in a linux-blunderland
Sorry, hamei. Type all you want, you're wrong. You pull so much bull out of your ass everytime you go off on your USA is dumb, China is even dumber diatribe; just who is the protagonist in your dilerim? Anyone? No one? Does it even matter anymore? I'm not going for it anymore, I'm not even reading. Time to hire a new janitor.

_________________
:Skywriter:

DECUS Member 368596


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:37 am
Posts: 5735
Location: Renton, WA
In any case I certainly would not bet against Americans when the stakes get high. Underneath the flab there's strength and courage in enough of 'em to get us though a lot. That's also why I think those people who have their bunker and arsenal because they're sure that there's going to be civil war after the next natural disaster are silly. Regarding the current economic climate - we've been here before. Multiple times - and it's not just the '20s and '30s.

_________________
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

There are those who say I'm a bit of a curmudgeon. To them I reply: "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

:Indigo: :Octane: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :PI: :O3x0: :ChallengeL: :O2000R: (single-CM)


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 1887
Location: P.O. Box 121, Pymble, Sydney, NSW 2073, Australia.
SAQ wrote:
Regarding the current economic climate - we've been here before. Multiple times - and it's not just the '20s and '30s.


I dunno... In Australia things feel different... I don't know what it is but Australia is riding a huge mining boom (*) and the rest of the economy is in full reverse... And there is something up, something very very wrong, you can sense it walking down the street, the same streets I walked down after the 1987 crash, after the Asian tigers were tamed .... This time as they say is different (**).

The current government here, everybody is frightened to open their wallet for anything, even if they were drowning in money.

R.

* Dutch disease, look it up on wikipedia.
** Well maybe,

_________________
死の神はりんごだけ食べる

開いた括弧は必ず閉じる -- あるプログラマー

:Tezro: :Tezro: :Onyx2R: :Onyx2RE: :Onyx2: :O3x04R: :O3x0: :O200: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :PI: :PI: :1600SW: :1600SW: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy:
:hpserv: J5600, 2 x Mac, 3 x SUN, Alpha DS20E, Alpha 800 5/550, 3 x RS/6000, Amiga 4000 VideoToaster, Amiga4000 -030, 733MHz Sam440 AmigaOS 4.1 update 1.

Sold: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo: Tandem Himalaya S-Series Nonstop S72000 ServerNet.

@PymbleSoftware
Cortex ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cortex-th ... 11?sk=info
Minnie ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Minnie-th ... 02?sk=info
Book ----> http://pymblesoftware.com/book/
Github ---> https://github.com/pymblesoftware
Visit http://www.pymblesoftware.com
Search for "Pymble", "InstaElf", "CryWhy" or "Cricket Score Sheet" in the iPad App store or search for "Pymble" or "CryWhy" in the iPhone App store.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9315
skywriter wrote:
You pull so much bull out of your ass everytime you go off on your USA is dumb ...

And the US has done soooooo well since 1975 ...
Attachment:
business.jpg
business.jpg [ 238.38 KiB | Viewed 609 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:48 pm
Posts: 1887
Location: P.O. Box 121, Pymble, Sydney, NSW 2073, Australia.
I think I've run into "action item" in disguise (*) in most meetings I've had since 1988..

R.

His Clark Kent persona comes in sooo many forms.

_________________
死の神はりんごだけ食べる

開いた括弧は必ず閉じる -- あるプログラマー

:Tezro: :Tezro: :Onyx2R: :Onyx2RE: :Onyx2: :O3x04R: :O3x0: :O200: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :PI: :PI: :1600SW: :1600SW: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy:
:hpserv: J5600, 2 x Mac, 3 x SUN, Alpha DS20E, Alpha 800 5/550, 3 x RS/6000, Amiga 4000 VideoToaster, Amiga4000 -030, 733MHz Sam440 AmigaOS 4.1 update 1.

Sold: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo: Tandem Himalaya S-Series Nonstop S72000 ServerNet.

@PymbleSoftware
Cortex ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Cortex-th ... 11?sk=info
Minnie ---> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Minnie-th ... 02?sk=info
Book ----> http://pymblesoftware.com/book/
Github ---> https://github.com/pymblesoftware
Visit http://www.pymblesoftware.com
Search for "Pymble", "InstaElf", "CryWhy" or "Cricket Score Sheet" in the iPad App store or search for "Pymble" or "CryWhy" in the iPhone App store.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:37 am
Posts: 5735
Location: Renton, WA
I know someone who talks like that. Is that general business jargon or something more specialized? Anyway, it does take about twice as long to parse those emails/conversations as anyone else's.

_________________
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!

There are those who say I'm a bit of a curmudgeon. To them I reply: "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

:Indigo: :Octane: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :PI: :O3x0: :ChallengeL: :O2000R: (single-CM)


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:22 am
Posts: 3097
Location: living in a linux-blunderland
It's really funny to a lathe operator talk about business. But, hey go ahead your clip-art arguments are
perfectly at home here.

_________________
:Skywriter:

DECUS Member 368596


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1592
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
This notion that the wealth amassed by millionaires and billionaires is forever locked away from the economy that the rest of us participate in is just wrong. In particular, the lie was put to that foible by the description Tom Wolfe wrote of his expenses in "Mauve Gloves & Madmen Clutter & Vine:" http://www.tomwolfe.com/MauveGlovesExcerpt.html

_________________
Project:
Simple as do, re, mi. a, b, c. one, two, three baby you and me
Plan:
World domination! Or something...


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9315
skywriter wrote:
It's really funny to a lathe operator talk about business.

It is, isn't it ? The very last thing any lathe operator wants to be is a business. But these things happen ...

But do you know what's even funnier ? What's really really funny is listening to the bearded dickwads at business schools talk about "business." There's not a single one of them who's ever had a real business. Hey, maybe I should open a school to teach NFL quarterbacks, something I'm totally unqualified for. Then I could be almost as smart as the shitheads at Hahvud.


Quote:
But, hey go ahead your clip-art arguments are perfectly at home here.

They are even more at home at hahvud, where they were originated. What a load of stupid blather, but that's what y'all want to hear now. People who have actual experience, who have been in the real world ? No way, we can sell seminars with Action Item ! And Larry Page ! And Carly Fiorina ! Bernie Madoff ! Kenny-boy Lay ! Successful men in Business !

Oh. Sorry. My mistake. Since you never capitalize I probably thought you meant business when you really meant Business : the re-enactment of the eighteenth-century French aristocracy. A bunch of more worthless leeches and fools the world has not (yet) seen, but rulers of their country ! Get lucky and something goes well, it's because they are brillant arisctocrats, it's in the blood ! Fuck everything up beyond belief and it was God's Will, inevitable, a Business Rule that everyone who's gone to our brilliant school recognizes as an unavoidable truism ... and oh yes, we need 800 billion dollars this week because we've just totally fucked up the finances of the entire country. Uhh, could you please get your stinking government hands out of our business ? And leave the 800 billion behind when you leave, if you would. We've got bonuses to pay.

Remember, we know our shit, d00d ! We're the Private Sector ! We're Businessmen ! In our Business Suits ! We be impotent ! Well, who cares anyway we'll just raise taxes on the peasants. We are the rulers by Divine Right no matter what and don't you scummy little bourgeouis gardeners and kitchen help forget it ! Now go to your room while your Hahvud Business School betters run the rest of the country down the fucking toilet while we put all the assets into our own pile.

yeah, "Business." Great stuff, if you happen to belong to that club of leeches, con artists, thieves and liars, have absolutely no ethics and care about nothing in the world except yourself. Luckily for the world, it ain't gonna last much longer.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 6:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:22 am
Posts: 3097
Location: living in a linux-blunderland
Okdokay!

_________________
:Skywriter:

DECUS Member 368596


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9315
skywriter wrote:
Okdokay!

Exactly. Let them eat cake.


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:25 pm
Posts: 1592
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
Cake, eh? So are you intimating it might be time to start sharpening up the guillotines? :twisted:

_________________
Project:
Simple as do, re, mi. a, b, c. one, two, three baby you and me
Plan:
World domination! Or something...


Top
 Profile  
 
Unread postPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9315
vishnu wrote:
So are you intimating it might be time to start sharpening up the guillotines? :twisted:

It seems not, which is why I would say the US is toast. For some reason, all the people in the US who used to have okay jobs over at the plant or down at the furniture factory or wherever seem to think that one day they will be wealthy investment bankers, so they are all rah-rah about the very things that have robbed them of their retirement, their health care, their home equity, and their future. And their children's future. They dream the lifestyles of the rich and famous while they apply for a job selling large Cokes down at Micky D.

Damned if I understand it but what can you say ? The massa-on-da-hill leeches are safe from the guillotines for this generation. Maybe the next gen will decide they don't like being peasants. I'm working on a six-spindle high-performance guillotine now, just in case they decide to grow some balls one day. Doing it on the Fuel, too, R10 :P


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group