Fuel Value Depreciation

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Why are Fuels depreciating so quickly?

All SGI hardware is depreciating quickly.
26
55%
Fuel-specific quality issue.
4
9%
Fuels aren't blue or purple! :-)
13
28%
Other.
4
9%
 
Total votes: 47

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josehill
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Fuel Value Depreciation

Unread postby josehill » Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:42 am

In another thread, there has been some mention of the rapid depreciation in value of Fuel systems.

Any speculation about why?

Is it specific to Fuel (suggesting perhaps a quality issue) , or is it something applicable to all IRIX hardware these days (probably a function of SGI's corporate condition and the end of IRIX system manufacturing...remember, someone bought a nice O3k for less than $1k last week)?

If it's because of the latter, I'll be looking forward to buying a $500 V12 Fuel in a few months. If it's because of the former, well, maybe I'll pass.

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Unread postby zizban » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:27 am

I'm interested in these because I am getting ready to buy a Fuel as well.

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Unread postby ipaddict » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:44 am

Being as I brought this topic to bear, I should probably respond. :wink:

Not all SGI equipment has depreciated nearly as fast as the Fuel. Octanes, for example, that are knocking at a decade old are still selling for $350-400. Compared to the Fuel, these machines have held their (albeit low) value for quite some time.

However, the Fuel is about 5 years old, and it is selling for the same amount as a 10 year-old Octane? That, to me, is indicative of both the beauty of the Octane design and the lack of interest in Fuel's peecee-inspired design.

The Fuel was marketed as the replacement for the Octane2, yet it had half the CPUs, half the RAM and couldn't use any of the XIO boards that many Octane owners rely on. The Fuel *should* have been marketed as a replacement for the 02, given it's relatively limited potential when compared to a workstation like Tezro or even Prism.

All told, I don't think I am alone in seeing the Fuel as yet another example of "too little, too late" for SGI. Market forces seem to agree with me.

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Unread postby schleusel » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:10 am

Supply and demand. Nothing special in this case IMHO. The lower end Octane2 market developed in exactly the same way as the market for 500/600MHz V10 Fuels does now. I remember being happy to see the first 400MHz V6 Octanes slowly coming down to below 1000 EUR.. just a year later ebay was flooded with those at prices of 300 or 400 EUR.

I haven't been watching international Fuel offers but on german ebay there have been some companies dumping sevaral V10 Fuels (off-lease machines mostly from German car manufacturers) per week onto the market over months.. that obviously accelerates depreciation.

Currently you see 600MHz V10 machines selling for as low as 350 EUR while a 700MHz V12 still catches almost 1000 EUR. I'm sure the price difference won't end up being just as drastic as with low-end vs. high-end Octanes these days but still I wouldn't count on the hope of all Fuel configs deprecating equally quickly..

ipaddict wrote:The Fuel was marketed as the replacement for the Octane2, yet it had half the CPUs, half the RAM and couldn't use any of the XIO boards that many Octane owners rely on.


The Fuel was never intended or marketed as a general replacement for the Octane. If at all, it qualifies as a replacement for lower to mid-range Single CPU Octane2. The general Octane replacement was always the Tezro. During the 1.5 years between the Fuel and Tezro launches they never stopped to market the Octane2 as the high end offering - not the Fuel.

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Unread postby ipaddict » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:19 am

schleusel wrote:
ipaddict wrote:The Fuel was marketed as the replacement for the Octane2, yet it had half the CPUs, half the RAM and couldn't use any of the XIO boards that many Octane owners rely on.


The Fuel was never intended or marketed as a general replacement for the Octane. If at all, it qualifies as a replacement for lower to mid-range Single CPU Octane2. The general Octane replacement was always the Tezro. During the 1.5 years between the Fuel and Tezro launches they never stopped to market the Octane2 as the high end offering - not the Fuel.


I recall the Fuel being sold (to my company, at least) as the "if you must stay on IRIX" machine, and the Prism being pushed as "what we really think you want" machine to replace the Octane2. This happened just before SGI backtracked and released the Tezro, which was essentially a "we'd *really* like you leave IRIX, but here's another IRIX/MIPS workstation, if you don't want to leave."

My recollection may be way off base (as you seem to be implying), though.

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Unread postby unixmuseum » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:58 am

The Fuel was the Technology Upgrade for the O2+ (contractual jargon from sgi), the Tezro was the Technology Upgrade for the Octane 2 (which was the Technology Upgrade for the Octane). Somehow though, even though it's probably quicker than an O2, I don't see the Fuel being a great replacement for the O2+

It's a decent machine, but single CPU, 4GB RAM max was pretty low-end even when the Fuel hit the market... I'd take an Octane 2 anyday instead of a Fuel...

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Fuel deprec.

Unread postby SAQ » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:00 am

I think that the issue is predominantly market based- and it is important to consider that the Fuel is a low end machine, in the Indy/O2 vein (although the O2 bucks the trend when you compare price/speed with a Octane on the used market). SGI has very officially said that IRIX is gone, so companies are starting to look for replacements for their IRIX workstations. As this happens, they will tend to drop first the lower-end equipment (the calculus will probably include: useability of the equipment, maintenance/operations costs, licenses/added value items). The Fuels in circulation, as a low-end machine, probably don't compete with the high-end dualie Octanes, and it is more likely that expensive, IRIX specific apps were bought in the days of the Octane (Discreet, etc.) and so maintaining the Octanes in preference to a mix of Octane and Fuel would allow for spares commonality across the IRIX desktop (excluding the few Tezros, but those would be worth the bother). Midrange Onyxes will probably also continue to hold the owner's interest for a while.

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Unread postby schleusel » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:48 am

ipaddict wrote:My recollection may be way off base (as you seem to be implying), though.


Oh, i don't want to imply anything :-) Maybe i should have left out the "never marketed" part of my statement. I'm sure that sales reps tried to sell Fuels to previous Octane2 owners - might even have been perfectly valid depending on the configuration and usage patterns of the Octanes in question. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't officially advertised as a general Octane replacement (on the website, in press releases etc..)

One thing i doubt though is that they really tried to sell you Prisms before the Tezro was released - given that Prism came much later :-)

unixmuseum wrote:Somehow though, even though it's probably quicker than an O2, I don't see the Fuel being a great replacement for the O2+


Indeed - at least not for anybody who actually used the O2 for what it was good at. I think the Fuel really doesn't clearly belong in any of the classic product lines. I think it was originally ment to be some kind of new midrange - targeted at an audience asking for a rather quick all-round mips/irix workstation without having to pay for some of the Octane2 bells and whistles they didn't really need. O2 was really getting a bit long in the teeth for non-video tasks while Octane2 had a very high entry price (i seem to remember that the first low end fuels sold for less than half the price of an equally equipped low end Octane2)..

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Unread postby ipaddict » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:55 am

schleusel wrote:One thing i doubt though is that they really tried to sell you Prisms before the Tezro was released - given that Prism came much later :-)


Whoops! You're right! :oops:

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Unread postby ghoward986 » Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:32 am

This is why I resold my Fuel after buying it. Nice machine but I didn't want to lose a bunch of money on a machine that isn't much better than a Octane 2.

However I don't agree with people saying that the Fuel is like a PC, it is much better made than any pc I have ever looked at. Sure it is not Indigo or Octane but it is still a good design.

Gary

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Unread postby skywriter » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:05 am

ghoward986 wrote:However I don't agree with people saying that the Fuel is like a PC, it is much better made than any pc I have ever looked at. Sure it is not Indigo or Octane but it is still a good design.

Gary


yeah, it even LOOKS like a tower PEECEE. if i wanted that i would buy (more) 230, 330, 550's. cause they look cool, and i need PEECEE's. hey at least the firewire works :)

i'm saving my 'throw money at computers' cash for a quad tzero.
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Unread postby Oskar45 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:49 pm

skywriter wrote:
ghoward986 wrote:However I don't agree with people saying that the Fuel is like a PC, it is much better made than any pc I have ever looked at. Sure it is not Indigo or Octane but it is still a good design.

Gary


yeah, it even LOOKS like a tower PEECEE. if i wanted that i would buy (more) 230, 330, 550's. cause they look cool, and i need PEECEE's. hey at least the firewire works :)

i'm saving my 'throw money at computers' cash for a quad tzero.

Sorry, I really don't get what the LOOK of any SGI box should have to do with its /performance/ etc. [while I do have a more drastic example - but how many people are driving less than visually pleasing cars and are nevertheless happy with it?] In fact, while I do plan to get myself a Tezro next year as well, I find it absolutely ugly - so what? I'm not buying it because of its Miss World title but because hopefully it will fulfill its intended purpose... :lol:
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Unread postby WolvesOfTheNight » Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:55 pm

ipaddict wrote: Octanes, for example, that are knocking at a decade old are still selling for $350-400.


Most Octane computers are not worth the cost to ship unless they have something fancy in them [e.g. PCI card cage, rare XIO/PCI cards, gold bricks, etc], in which case it is the fancy item that drives up the price. If you know someone that will give $200 + shipping for some 10 year old non-fancy Octanes let me know. I used to have 9 of the things that I gave away because I could not get anyone to pay to ship them. However, I can get more...

The Octane 2s, well, a basic one seems to sell for about $100 and the high end ones go for a lot more :).
-WolvesOfTheNight

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Unread postby ghoward986 » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:53 pm

skywriter wrote:
ghoward986 wrote:However I don't agree with people saying that the Fuel is like a PC, it is much better made than any pc I have ever looked at. Sure it is not Indigo or Octane but it is still a good design.

Gary


yeah, it even LOOKS like a tower PEECEE. if i wanted that i would buy (more) 230, 330, 550's. cause they look cool, and i need PEECEE's. hey at least the firewire works :)

i'm saving my 'throw money at computers' cash for a quad tzero.


Why does it look like a PC? Do you own a Fuel or have you ever owned one? I thought the same but Fuel's are nothing like a Pc inside.

Anyway what is wrong with a PC's I own 5 of them, great machines for what they do, which is just about anything. Whats with this "peecee" BS, SGI's are great but pc's are what most people own as a first machine.

It seems like pc's are a bad word! SGI's are good at what they do but have never and will never be a replacment for a mac or a pc, there is just not the software out their like for a mac/pc also lets not forget the fact that Irix is a dead Os thanks to SGI. Which is sad but thats life....

Gary

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Unread postby mapesdhs » Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:16 pm

ipaddict wrote:
> The Fuel was marketed as the replacement for the Octane2, yet it had half the CPUs, half
> the RAM and couldn't use any of the XIO boards that many Octane owners rely on. ...

No, Tezro was the replacement for Octane2. Fuel was simply a single-CPU box that
many SGI customers were asking for, and as such it was *a lot* cheaper than an entry
Octane2 ever was.


>The Fuel *should* have been marketed as a replacement for the 02, given it's relatively
> limited potential when compared to a workstation like Tezro or even Prism.

That would have implied Fuel was the new low-end, which it was never supposed to
be or could be. SGI's low-end products always had an eye towards included media
features, none of which Fuel has as standard. O2 is an all-round machine, Fuel is not.
There was a lot of talk about a new low-end, and even a nice prototype nicknamed
the Banana2K (or b2k), but management killed it (pity, it was cool: dual-core Broadcomm
MIPS CPU, new fast bus as used by NVIDIA, and modern NVIDIA gfx). Oh well.


> All told, I don't think I am alone in seeing the Fuel as yet another example of "too little,
> too late" for SGI. Market forces seem to agree with me.

Fuel was a response to market demand, though there were definitely some mistakes.
The RAM limit should have been 8GB, not 4GB, and I really don't see why audio
couldn't have been included as standard given the relative low-cost of the relevant
card (basically just a Revolution 7.1). I rather like Fuel, despite its internal PC-style
appearance; but don't knock it too much! I once had to replace a V10 board in a Fuel
and it was waaay easier than I was expecting it to be. I like the included PCI, the
fast arch, 5.25" bays, faster SCSI, and especially the lower noise (definitely quieter
than Octane). But with these differences, and given Octane2 can have dual-CPUs,
it's too different to say Fuel is better or worse. Fuel has very obvious speed advantages,
but I still use an Octane2 for my main system. IMO they complement each other nicely.

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