Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

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MrBill
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Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:50 am

Tracked down install media and am trying to get the crimson i just picked up running. Appears to be fully functional. I tried both of my old dead drives in it, they will not read, but do show up in hinv, which is more than they did on the old machine, So the hard drive controller is working.

I have a ton of various scsi drives around here, most of which are the kind with that hot swap connector on the front, like what is used in the octanes.

I am trying to connect the drive externally. I picked up a nice little scsi enclosure, and have it attached with a cable to the front of the crimson. There were two terminators on the front, i took one off on controller 0, with or without the terminator at the end of the chain does not appear to make a difference at the moment. In the enclosure, i have an adapter going from the wide scsi connector to the hot swap connector.

None of the drives i have tried show up in hinv. Upon powering up the enclosure, i hear the drives spin up, they are known working drives, so I am wondering if there is something I am missing.

I have not yet tried to swap out one of the drive in the internal crimson caddy, i am just sticking to the external enclosure for now. My adapter board appears to be a little wider than the caddy so i am sticking to external drives for now.

The internal cd drive does show up, and i am able to read the irix install cd, so i just need to sort out the hard drive issue and it should be good.
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:52 am

I should also note i have had no trouble with this adapter on other machines, it is almost identical to what is in my indigo 2 which works fine.
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robespierre
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby robespierre » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:08 am

Are you connecting to a High Voltage Differential SCSI bus?
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:32 am

i am uncertain. how can i tell. looking that up tells that mixing two kinds of devices can cause damage, so i am going to stop what i am doing till i understand further.
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kjaer
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby kjaer » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:25 pm

If the Crimson is anything like the Onyx in this regard, those front panel connectors aren't necessarily connected to anything until you move cables around and plug one or both into something (probably first disconnecting one bus or the other from the internal backplane).
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:54 pm

I will have to look into that. As far as scsi hvd and scsi SE devices go, how do i tell what is what so i do not burn the thing up?
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:56 pm

Alright. Sufficiently confused now. It outright refuses to see any of my good drives.bunch of seagate and quantum 73gb drives. I have a box of old ibm drives, they are horrible. sound like a buzz saw. they are recognized, but the good quiet higher capacity drives are not. Is there some kind of size limitation? Is there a working model of hard drive i can stock pile for the crimson so i can be done with this issue?
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robespierre
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby robespierre » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:52 pm

There's no way to tell HVD SCSI from the connectors or cables, they're exactly the same. HVD host adapters *usually* say either "HVD" or "DIFF" in a legible place near the connector, and they have large resistor packs near there as well, which are usually not there for SE SCSI HBAs.

Your good drives are probably Ultra320, which are not always compatible with narrow bus operation; any drives before that will be quite old.
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kjaer
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby kjaer » Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:08 pm

I didn't think the Crimson IO3B had differential SCSI, just single-ended. If there's a VME SCSI board though, sure, that could go either way.
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby jan-jaap » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:01 am

kjaer wrote:I didn't think the Crimson IO3B had differential SCSI, just single-ended. If there's a VME SCSI board though, sure, that could go either way.

Correct. The IO3B is single ended, narrow SCSI-1, running at 5MB/s (synchronously). Apparently U320 SCSI dropped part of the original spec (narrow?) so I can see a problem there with (too) modern disks. I've got an 18GB 50pin Seagate disk in mine, which is about the largest size ever made in narrow SCSI. The IO3B features two SCSI buses, and normally both are wired to the drive bays, two bays per channel. In that case, the two centronics ports under the drive bays should have a terminator fitted.

It is possible to mount a short jumper cable instead, linking all drive bays in a single SCSI chain. In that case, the SCSI cable which comes down from above inside the card cage is connected with a short pig tail cable to a connector on the bulkhead. This is usually found in older PowerSeries with a single channel SCSI board (IO2). A Crimson normally doesn't have that connector on the bulkhead. You can see an example HERE.

The VME SCSI board is a rebadged Interphase 'Jaguar', and (possibly ?) high voltage differential SCSI. I've got one in my 4D/440VGX, and being HVD narrow SCSI it's exceptionally useless. Mine is fitted with HD50 connectors on the bulkheads, more what you'd expect from SCSI-2 (e.g. an Indy). This VME board is a dual channel card so you'd expect a pair of matching connectors. Mixing HVD and SE SCSI is a sure way to destroy something. And I'm pretty sure the Crimson only boots from the IO3B anyway so the Jaguar SCSI board is only usable for that mythical narrow HVD SCSI device I've never seen... Oh, BitSavers/archive.org has the documentation of the Jaguar board :)

You said the 5.25" disk that was originally in the Crimson died. It's possible to mount a newer 3.5" hard disk in that drive bracket if you use a pair of U-shaped adapters, like THIS. The Crimson wants to boot by default from SCSI ID #1 on the first IO3B SCSI channel
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby miod » Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:21 pm

jan-jaap wrote:The VME SCSI board is a rebadged Interphase 'Jaguar', and (possibly ?) high voltage differential SCSI.

One has to be extremely careful with Jaguar boards. Not only do they exist in both single-ended and differential flavour with no clear difference between them, but they also take daughterboards for a second SCSI bus (or a printer port... why they considered this a useful idea is beyond me), which can themselves either be single-ended or differential, allowing both flavours to be mixed on a single board.

I have a bunch of (Motorola rebadged as MVME328) Jaguar boards of various flavours; I'll try to visually inspect them and see if I can come with hints to tell them apart.
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:16 pm

Alright. Managed to find some slightly newer drives that are not quite as noisy that appear to be compatible with the crimson, so that solves that issue.

I am trying to install IRIX 6.2 and running into issues.

i first boot into sash with:

boot -f dksc(0,3,8)sashIP17

which loads up sash, it complains about there being no keyboard but goes on.

i then try to boot into fx

boot -f dksc(0,3,7)/stand/fx.IP17

this throws an exception and appeard to drop me into some kind of machine monitor. Am i doing anything wrong?
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:30 pm

I set the console enviroment variable to console=d and that dis away with the warnings, still the same behavior though.
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robespierre
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby robespierre » Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:33 pm

MrBill wrote:i first boot into sash with:

boot -f dksc(0,3,8)sashIP17

which loads up sash, it complains about there being no keyboard but goes on.

i then try to boot into fx

boot -f dksc(0,3,7)/stand/fx.IP17

this throws an exception and appeard to drop me into some kind of machine monitor. Am i doing anything wrong?

Yes, there is no "boot -f" in the second line.
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MrBill
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Re: Getting crimson set up - Hard drive issues

Unread postby MrBill » Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:05 am

Let me give that a shot, thanks.
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