O2 Firewire options

SGI hardware problems, solutions, tips, hacks, etc.
Forum rules
Any posts concerning pirated software or offering to buy/sell/trade commercial software are subject to removal.
User avatar
pentium
Posts: 4728
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Kamloops, BC

O2 Firewire options

Unread postby pentium » Mon Mar 25, 2013 7:59 pm

The aggregator is rather vague on compatibility. All it says is that red Adaptec cards work. Others say that only certain TI chipset cards work. Others say Irix sees it as a DM10.

Anyways, I tried two of my own cards. First one was an Adaptec (1394B-BL3) with TI TSB482AA2 and TSB81BA3 link and physical layer chipsets. It as red. It was Adaptec. Only odd things was it was PCI-X and had FW800. Under 6.5.30 it isn't even seen.

DPP_0024.JPG

DPP_0025.JPG


Next card is a Macally FH-701 with TSB41LV03 and TSB12LV23 chips.
Irix complains about it while booting and only sees it as a 1394 interface when fully booted.

DPP_0026.JPG

DPP_0027.JPG

DPP_0028.JPG


What use is the card if only seen as a 1394 interface andnot as a DM10 or is there any real difference according to Irix at all beyond the naming?
:Crimson: :Onyx: :O2000: :O200: :O200: :PI: :PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :1600SW: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Cube:

Image <-------- A very happy forum member.

User avatar
jan-jaap
Donor
Donor
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:35 am
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby jan-jaap » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:23 am

The DM10 is a PCI card. Just a generic FireWire card with a DM10 sticker, to be precise :)

The device driver doesn't care about the manufacturer or the color of the PCB. It cares about the PCI vendorID:deviceID of the chip(s) on the board. In IRIX, a device driver can register itself as a handler for one or more PCI IDs using the function pciio_driver_register(). It usually does this in the entry point ${DRIVER_NAME}_init().

It wouldn't be kind to Nekonoko to post disassembled IRIX code here, but if you run fire.o through dis and have a look at fire_init(), you'll see it calls pciio_driver_register() three times, for these PCI IDs:
  • 104c:8009: TI TSB12LV22 IEEE-1394 Controller
  • 104c:8019: TI TSB12LV23 IEEE-1394 Controller
  • 104c:8024: TI TSB43AB23 IEEE-1394a-2000 Controller (PHY/Link)

The Adaptec board recognized as a DM10 has a PCI ID of 104c:8024.

So, it is to be expected that any card with a PCI ID of 104c:8024 is recognized as a DM10. The other two IDs are probably a courtesy of the driver writer because SGI didn't ship products with those IDs. These appear to be recognized as '1394 high speed OHCI card'.

The IRIX kernel will not call the 1394 driver for any devices not registered by it. This includes your FW800 Adaptec, regardless of it's shiny red appearance ;)

TI made quite a few different 1394 link layer chips (and corresponding PHYs), but the three mentioned here are the most common in consumer equipment. Hence Hamei's sentiment that 'anything with a TI chip' works (even if the PCB is green :mrgreen: )

Those handy with hex editors might get creative and patch the PCI IDs supported by the driver. I'd be careful with that, though: several 1394 chips, especially VIA chips, have really weird quirks. An 800Mb TI chip might work, though. Maybe I'll give it a shot.

And that, boys and girls, concludes today's introduction to reverse engineering :lol:
:PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2+: Image :Fuel: :Tezro: :4D70G: :Skywriter: :PWRSeries: :Crimson: :ChallengeL: :Onyx: :O200: :Onyx2: :O3x02L:
To accentuate the special identity of the IRIS 4D/70, Silicon Graphics' designers selected a new color palette. The machine's coating blends dark grey, raspberry and beige colors into a pleasing harmony. (IRIS 4D/70 Superworkstation Technical Report)

ramq
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:06 am
Location: Sweden

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby ramq » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:52 am

I have a Belkin 800Mb card at home, NIB and unused. This actually got me thinking... Hmmm...
:O3200: :Fuel: :Indy: :O3x02L:

User avatar
jan-jaap
Donor
Donor
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:35 am
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby jan-jaap » Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:38 am

OK, I couldn't resist. Put a MacPower FireWire 800 card in the Fuel, and patched the link layer PCI ID in (104c:8025).

It is picked up, and reported in hinv:

Code: Select all

1 500 MHZ IP35 Processor
CPU: MIPS R14000 Processor Chip Revision: 2.3
FPU: MIPS R14010 Floating Point Chip Revision: 2.3
Main memory size: 1024 Mbytes
Instruction cache size: 32 Kbytes
Data cache size: 32 Kbytes
Secondary unified instruction/data cache size: 2 Mbytes
Integral SCSI controller 2: Version IEEE1394 SBP2
Integral SCSI controller 0: Version QL12160, low voltage differential
  Disk drive: unit 1 on SCSI controller 0
  Disk drive: unit 2 on SCSI controller 0
Integral SCSI controller 1: Version QL12160, single ended
  CDROM: unit 1 on SCSI controller 1
IOC3/IOC4 serial port: tty3
IOC3/IOC4 serial port: tty4
IOC3 parallel port: plp1
Graphics board: V10
Integral Fast Ethernet: ef0, version 1, module 001c01, pci 4
IEEE 1394 High performance serial bus controller 0: Type: OHCI, Version 0 0
USB controller: type OHCI
USB Human Interface Device: device id 0 type keyboard
USB Human Interface Device: device id 0 type mouse

(notice the IEEE 1394 High performance serial bus controller and Integral SCSI controller 2: Version IEEE1394 SBP2)

*but* at boot it mutters something about a loss of SCLK and unable to reset the bus.

I happen to know a thing or two about FireWire (cough) and this isn't good. Basically the interface between the discrete link layer (TSB82AA2) and PHY (TSB81BA3) chips isn't properly initialized. The TSB82AA2 is a 1394B OHCI 1.1 link layer, and that's too different from 1394A OHCI 1.0 chips to 'just' work without changes to the code. Additionally, the TI TSB81BA3 PHY has a bug described here: http://www.ti.com/lit/er/sllz059/sllz059.pdf which needs to be worked around or it simply won't work.

And indeed, an attached Lacie FireWire 800 hard disk doesn't show.

OK, now back to work ;)
:PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2+: Image :Fuel: :Tezro: :4D70G: :Skywriter: :PWRSeries: :Crimson: :ChallengeL: :Onyx: :O200: :Onyx2: :O3x02L:
To accentuate the special identity of the IRIS 4D/70, Silicon Graphics' designers selected a new color palette. The machine's coating blends dark grey, raspberry and beige colors into a pleasing harmony. (IRIS 4D/70 Superworkstation Technical Report)

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10433
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby hamei » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:59 am

jan-jaap wrote:OK, I couldn't resist. Put a MacPower FireWire 800 card in the Fuel, and patched the link layer PCI ID in (104c:8025). ... And indeed, an attached Lacie FireWire 800 hard disk doesn't show.

Someone else tried that card before. You got farther than they did, if that's any consolation :)

What are the chances of something like this becoming Irix-useful ?

http://www.dennedy.org/libraw1394/
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

ramq
Posts: 771
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:06 am
Location: Sweden

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby ramq » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:13 pm

And guess what I found on this particular board? (Belkin F5U623)

TSB82AA2 and it's partner TSB81BA3. Fsck.
Back to the pile again...
:O3200: :Fuel: :Indy: :O3x02L:

ajw99uk
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 4:59 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby ajw99uk » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:03 pm

jan-jaap wrote:OK, I couldn't resist. Put a MacPower FireWire 800 card in the Fuel, and patched the link layer PCI ID in (104c:8025).

Unlucky! looking at the PCI ID database, 8025 is only one of two in the run of IDs 8000 - 802e that has separate link and PHY (tho' the list is far from sequential). <speculation>Devices with 8032, 803a, 8101 might also be worth trying - the last is a TSB43DB42 so presumably not unrelated to the TSB43AB23 in a 104c:8024 device and has the same "IEEE-1394a-2000" description.</speculation>

Thing is, once you've got Firewire, what do you do with it? In my case, I should be backing up my Fuel to the 1TB FW external disk I bought after I'd added the FW card! I really should be backing up my Fuel somewhere!!
Fuel; Indigo2; Inspiron 531 WinXP/Win10/debian-buster; Inspiron 4100 debian-buster; RiscPC Kinetic/448MB/RISCOS4.39; RPi B/256MB RISCOS5.23; RPi2 Raspbian-buster; A5000/33MHz/FPA11/8MB/RISCOS3.11; A540/25MHz/FPA10/16MB/RISCOS3.11 or RISCiX1.21

User avatar
pentium
Posts: 4728
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Kamloops, BC

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby pentium » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:55 pm

There was chatter in the IRC the other day that when seen as a DM10 you can attach DV devices like MiniDV cameras and decks and both stream and control to whatever software you have installed. Stuff like the iSight tries to work but apparently crashes and burns.
That's a hell of a lot more than just hanging disks off the system and a fair bit more useful. From the one picture I could find of the card it looked like any other PCI firewire controller with TI chipsets.
It IS worth nothing that my Macally card (and possibly the Adaptec card too) has an "EEPROM WRITE PROTECT" jumper. I'm curious if you can change the Device ID to something Irix would be more expecting.

Edited: Yes, this was actually asked once before.
:Crimson: :Onyx: :O2000: :O200: :O200: :PI: :PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :1600SW: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Cube:

Image <-------- A very happy forum member.

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10433
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby hamei » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:52 pm

pentium wrote:There was chatter in the IRC the other day that when seen as a DM10 you can attach DV devices like MiniDV cameras and decks and both stream and control to whatever software you have installed.

Best to ask the chatterers whether they have actually achieved this or whether they are typing out their nether regions. The people with the most experience here have never to my knowledge been able to get farther than a single upside-down frame displayed on the desktop.

Getting a DVD-writer to work is an interesting possibility tho. CD-ROMS have been reported as working in the Real World (tm). Memory card readers also work, but only up to 2 GB*. Perhaps some of the enthusiasts who want to open-source Irix could start by writing a userland VFAT driver ?

*Some day, just for fun, someone should try formatting a 4+ gig memory card as xfs, just to see if it works. That might be a useful way to transfer files to-from a Linux computer - kind of a super-floppy, what we used to call sneakernet. (Sneakers as in Keds, not the CIA type.)
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

User avatar
jan-jaap
Donor
Donor
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:35 am
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby jan-jaap » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:58 am

pentium wrote:There was chatter in the IRC the other day that when seen as a DM10 you can attach DV devices like MiniDV cameras and decks and both stream and control to whatever software you have installed. [...] That's a hell of a lot more than just hanging disks off the system.

All true.
pentium wrote:It IS worth nothing that my Macally card (and possibly the Adaptec card too) has an "EEPROM WRITE PROTECT" jumper. I'm curious if you can change the Device ID to something Irix would be more expecting.

Whoa there. There's a *big* difference between changing the subVendorID:subDeviceID (the essence of 'fixing' a 3c996bT or other OEMed TG3 gigabit card) and changing the vendorID:deviceID of a card.

The subVendorID:subDeviceID exists to allow the likes of SGI to sell an otherwise identical $10 IEEE1394 card as a $1000 video option.

The vendorID:deviceID exists to uniquely identify different, potentially incompatible, pieces of hardware. *How* incompatible is anybody's guess.

If *I* wanted to do this, I'd try a different approach. This is all documented, you know. The mechanism of a PCI driver roughly works like this:

1) The fire_init() function register the driver as the handler for the three device IDs mentioned yesterday.
2) The IRIX kernel scans the PCI bus(es) when booting, and if it encounters PCI devices, it attaches the registered driver for every instance it finds. If nothing is registered for a PCI ID, noting is attached.
3) So fire_attach() is called if any of the three device IDs is probed. But we've seen it doesn't *act* the same for each of these PCI IDs. In other words: these likely a secondary check in fire_attach() which checks the PCI ID for which it's being called, and depending on the results, registers either a "high performance IEEE1394 bus" or a "DMediaPro DM10 FW option" vertex in the hardware graph (the pseudo-fs under /hw).

So, to turn one of the two devices (device IDs 0x8009, 0x8019) into pseudo-DM10's, you'd have to locate the secondary check for 0x8024 and patch it out, or change the check to match your device.

And if your time is worth anything at all, you spend $10 on a card with the right PCI ID and it just 'works' (with all the limitations and quirks of the original DM10)
:PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2+: Image :Fuel: :Tezro: :4D70G: :Skywriter: :PWRSeries: :Crimson: :ChallengeL: :Onyx: :O200: :Onyx2: :O3x02L:
To accentuate the special identity of the IRIS 4D/70, Silicon Graphics' designers selected a new color palette. The machine's coating blends dark grey, raspberry and beige colors into a pleasing harmony. (IRIS 4D/70 Superworkstation Technical Report)

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10433
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby hamei » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:55 am

jan-jaap wrote:
pentium wrote:There was chatter in the IRC the other day that when seen as a DM10 you can attach DV devices like MiniDV cameras and decks and both stream and control to whatever software you have installed.

All true.

J-J : are you saying someone somewhere has got this to work in Irix or that it is all supposed to work in theory ?

It would be very nifty if it's possible to get these devices to function as advertised ...
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

User avatar
jan-jaap
Donor
Donor
Posts: 4881
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:35 am
Location: Wijchen, The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby jan-jaap » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:37 am

hamei wrote:
jan-jaap wrote:
pentium wrote:There was chatter in the IRC the other day that when seen as a DM10 you can attach DV devices like MiniDV cameras and decks and both stream and control to whatever software you have installed.

All true.

J-J : are you saying someone somewhere has got this to work in Irix or that it is all supposed to work in theory ?

I have personally used my Panasonic mini-DV camera (NV-GS220), a FireWire webcam and a Lacie FireWire disk with a 'fake' DM10 (random 1394 card with the right [104c:8024] TI chip). I could crash the O2 running 'fsr' with a 1394 disk attached initially, but at some point that was fixed. The lack of hot plug makes it rather unusable though.

I am aware that people have had troubles with various FireWire devices over time, but how much of that was due to non-genuine DM10's, problems with early releases of the DM10 software? I don't know...

But my last message was more about the difference between cards with 104c:8009, 104c:8019 IDs and the 'DM10' (or compatible), the 104c:8024. The latter has the DigitalMedia functionality, and my post was about ways to (in theory) unlock this functionality on the 104c:8009 and 104c:8019 devices.

That was all speculation, but that's how I would do it. I had a quick look at fire_attach() and indeed it does the equivalent of

Code: Select all

pciio_device_id_t device_id = pciio_config_get(vhdl, PCI_CFG_DEVICE_ID, 2);

if (device_id == 0x8020 || device_id == 0x8024) {
    /* do DM10 things? */
}


0x8020 is a TSB12LV26 IEEE-1394 Controller (Link). Sloppy, the device driver has not even been registered to handle this device ... but I'm pretty sure if you patch 0x8009 or 0x8019 in there it will unlock DMedia functionality on those boards :mrgreen: I don't think I have either of these two boards, so I'll leave this for others to figure out.

And that, boys and girls, concludes today's reverse engineering tutorial.
:PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Octane: :Octane2: :O2: :O2+: Image :Fuel: :Tezro: :4D70G: :Skywriter: :PWRSeries: :Crimson: :ChallengeL: :Onyx: :O200: :Onyx2: :O3x02L:
To accentuate the special identity of the IRIS 4D/70, Silicon Graphics' designers selected a new color palette. The machine's coating blends dark grey, raspberry and beige colors into a pleasing harmony. (IRIS 4D/70 Superworkstation Technical Report)

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10433
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby hamei » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:30 pm

jan-jaap wrote:And that, boys and girls, concludes today's reverse engineering tutorial.

j-j, you're a prince. Thank you.
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

User avatar
pentium
Posts: 4728
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:29 pm
Location: Kamloops, BC

Re: O2 Firewire options

Unread postby pentium » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:26 pm

And if your time is worth anything at all, you spend $10 on a card with the right PCI ID and it just 'works' (with all the limitations and quirks of the original DM10)



That's most likely the more efficient thing. ;)
:Crimson: :Onyx: :O2000: :O200: :O200: :PI: :PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Indigo: :Octane: :O2: :1600SW: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :Indy: :Indy: :Cube:

Image <-------- A very happy forum member.


Return to “SGI: Hardware”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests