What's the fair price for V12 ?

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby hamei » Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:25 pm

kubatyszko wrote:I asked about BOTH Fuel and Octane V12 :)

You're right. Sorry :oops: But what no one bothered to mention to a newcomer is that they are totally different animals. There were a gazillion Octanes sold. Parts are pretty reasonable these days. There were not so many Fuels and Tezros sold. Everyone wants the V12, there aren't so many available. Much different price. This is similar to the situation with the Octane 400 mhz cpu and the O2 400 mhz cpu. Same chip, totally different prices. If you have an Octane, you can get a v12 easy and a reasonable retail price (not "Look what I scored on Ebay !!") will be aournd $250 - $350. For the Fuel and Tezro, it will be a fight and whatever you pay will be based on luck. I blew it on a $150 Fuel V12 recently, still kicking myself.

btw, the late Fuel / Tezro V10's, V12's are exactly the same. If one of our talented hardware/software guys figured out the secret sauce, s/he could make a fortune doing conversions.

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby kubatyszko » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:20 pm

I would probably bet on some small ID in the Card which tells the OS whether it's Fuel or Tezro - and the workaround might be similar to the one for TG3 Gig Ethernet in Fuel's - couple small changes in the driver and that should be it :)
Now - who has a spare Tezro V12 then ? :P
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby jan-jaap » Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:33 am

hamei wrote:btw, the late Fuel / Tezro V10's, V12's are exactly the same. If one of our talented hardware/software guys figured out the secret sauce, s/he could make a fortune doing conversions.

Leaving Octane out, I can identify these versions:

Code: Select all

                       part#          eeprom id
V10, Fuel, old rev.    030_1725_00x   ASTODYB
V10, Fuel, new rev.    030_1826_00x   ASTODYV10
V12, Fuel              030_1726_00x   ASTODY
V12, Tezro             030_1884_00x   ODY128B1_2

'AST' is for 'Asterix', the codename for Fuel. 'ODY' is short for Odyssey, the codename for VPro graphics.

If you scan the 'hinv' forum, you will see that in all modded O350's with a V10 or V12, it identifies itself as ASTODY, ASTODYB or ASTODYV10. Looks like nobody butchered a Tezro to mod an O350 :lol:

Now, I suspect that changing the contents of an EEPROM is possible from the L1 using some more or less undocumented calls (this is an entirely different discussion :mrgreen: ), but changing the part number is a different game. Unless they changed everything for VPro on Fuel/Tezro, the part number is stored in a NIC chip, which is written once (at the factory) and cannot be modified. It would have to be replaced with a new one with the correct part#.

Inside the IRIX kernel, a device driver can scan for NIC part numbers using nic_vmc_add(): http://techpubs.sgi.com/library/tpl/cgi ... info_set.z This would be the logical way to make the software tell the two cards apart. It is also how IRIX activates the keyboard & mouse ports on an (Onyx2) IO6G, but not on an Origin 2000 (IO6).

So, in order to "make a fortune", you would have to
1) Have a bunch of the correct late rev. V10's
2) Have a bunch of dead V12's to rip the NIC chips off.
3) Hope you can actually change the EEPROM
3) Replace the part# label stickers on the cards

... and even then, (if the customer is actually SGI themselves), you'd better cross your fingers, because SGI probably has a database of part#/serial# for support purposes, and all your serial#'s (the ABC123 thingie) would show up as V10 parts ...

IMHO there are less cumbersome ways to make a few bucks.
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby hamei » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:55 am

jan-jaap wrote:So, in order to "make a fortune", you would have to

Of course, 'fortune' is a relative term. But given that unemployment is running a good 15%, I'd think that more than a paltry few people would consider a few thousand dollars extra per year to be a reasonable facimile thereof :)

Dr D had a different theory (Recondas can dredge it up in about thirty seconds, I bet) but if you are correct :

1) Have a bunch of the correct late rev. V10's

How many V10 Fuels are there out in the wild ? How many owners would pay $100 to upgrade to a V12 ? That's your 'target' customer.
2) Have a bunch of dead V12's to rip the NIC chips off.

I'm going to assume that those chips are commercially available. I know, with SGI you can never assume anything like that - their serial port cards use their own wacked-out chips. But the Fuel was built fairly recently.
3) Hope you can actually change the EEPROM

There's the tricky part
3) Replace the part# label stickers on the cards

Even I can do that :P

... and even then, (if the customer is actually SGI themselves)

Why would you waste your time with SGI ? It's all the Fuel owners who want V12's. SGI has the prints. If they are too stupid to make more of their own parts, too bad for them.

And please don't tell me how much it costs. I live in China.

IMHO there are less cumbersome ways to make a few bucks.

You must be a 1%-er :P

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby recondas » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:02 am

hamei wrote:Dr D had a different theory (Recondas can dredge it up in about thirty seconds, I bet).

hamei is probably referring to one of these Dr. Dave posts, though if you haven't already seen it, the entire thread is worth reading.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16720976&start=30#p7300469
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16720976&start=45#p7300506
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Wed Nov 23, 2011 4:31 am

you'd better cross your fingers, because SGI probably has a database of part#/serial# for support purposes, and all your serial#'s (the ABC123 thingie) would show up as V10 parts ...


Maybe, but it also seem that at least some of the pre-rackspace SGI has been dismantled. Some of the SGI staff I've talked to don't even believe they ever sold MIPS based workstations. Weather they would know the difference between a V10 or V12 is up in the air.

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby jan-jaap » Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:28 am

I've posted my knowledge of EEPROMs in a new thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883

Happy hacking :)
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby kubatyszko » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:27 pm

PymbleSoftware wrote:
you'd better cross your fingers, because SGI probably has a database of part#/serial# for support purposes, and all your serial#'s (the ABC123 thingie) would show up as V10 parts ...


Maybe, but it also seem that at least some of the pre-rackspace SGI has been dismantled. Some of the SGI staff I've talked to don't even believe they ever sold MIPS based workstations. Weather they would know the difference between a V10 or V12 is up in the air.

R.


Well, this may be a bit on the edge, but there are ways to get many names from the RCS logs of something that used to be available on the net for a while (*you* know what I'm thinking of :D), and approach them, I guarantee that no geek in this world who built something would ever let it die - so I would assume many of those people could be helpful - but aside from getting their names, it may be hard to approach them(also so that neither side faces legal issues)... And I think 6.5.5 didn't include support for Vpro, so those may not even be the right people which makes it even more difficult (but they might know who knows who knows who :))

On the other hand, if by the time SGI released Fuel they knew or expected to be approaching end of MIPS line, it would make perfect sense to build V10/V12's from even the same hardware (many companies do that - CDWriters are often based on the same hardware with only fw being different for various models, even in Mainframes you get extra CPU's in the chassis and they enable them for you once you pay) - in the 2000's it could have been cheaper for them to build one unit of hardware and mod it by proper firmware accordingly to become V10/V12. Plus it gives them extra possibility to modify cards back per market demand if they ran out of stock (happening now ? - not that they still keep any people who would know how to do it though..)

"Oh, dear customer, and if you want to change V10 to V12 you need to pay a few extra $$, and we'll give you the same card with V12 firmware and a new sticker on it"

How likely is that ?
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:39 pm

I think kubatyszko is talking about the "golden screw driver" ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... crewdriver ). Its been around for decades.

But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features


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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby kubatyszko » Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:45 pm

PymbleSoftware wrote:I think kubatyszko is talking about the "golden screw driver" ( http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... crewdriver ). Its been around for decades.

But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features


R.


Yup. that's exactly what I'm talking about, in addition to the Golden Screwdriver there also used to be "a box with spare parts" - some countries were not allowed to be sold more than X of memory or CPU's in the set (cold war etc), so they would buy a bunch of "spare parts" :) (and don't I need to mention they would install all of them later).

Well maybe I'm smoking, first hamei suggested there may be a way to use Tezro's V12 in the Fuel, but later posts suggest "upgrading" V10 to become V12...

Time to go to work, cheers.
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby hamei » Wed Nov 23, 2011 6:10 pm

kubatyszko wrote:Well maybe I'm smoking, first hamei suggested there may be a way to use Tezro's V12 in the Fuel, but later posts suggest "upgrading" V10 to become V12....

Sorry for the confusion. Tezro and Fuel V10's and V12's are the same. It would be more practical to upgrade a Tezro by using a Fuel card tho, the Fuel is a lot less expensive than a Tezro. The Octane V10 and V12 have similar features to the Fuel / Tezro / Onyx350 Infinite Performance, but a different physical layout and no DVI connector.

Pymble : the late model slot-mount V10's and V12's are physically the same. The earlier revisions were different but apparently later on the price of memory was less than the price of stocking two versions of the card, so they did the ol' "charge $5,000 to clip the gold wire to make it twice as powerful" trick. It might have made their customers happier if they'd given the V10 128 megs of memory and put 512 on the V12 but Profit is Our Most Important Product !!

Maybe that's why SGI went tits-up, too. Does value never enter into the calculations of the buffoons running our society ?

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby recondas » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:27 pm

PymbleSoftware wrote:But I think there is a difference between V10 and V12 ... Look at the first table in http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#Features

The Fuel used V10s with two different part numbers.

The first V10, those with part number 030-1725-00x, had 32MB of memory soldered to the PCB.

Later in production SGI began using V10s with part number 030-1826-00x. It was discovered during the thread linked above that these V10s actually had 128MB of memory - the PCB and components are identical to the 030-1726-00x V12 used in the Fuel.

Since both have 128MB of memory, hamei was trying to point out that if you can determine how the Fuel defines one as a V10 and the other as a V12, Fuel V12s might not be so rare/expensive. That was also why jan-jaap started the thread that contained the contents of the 030-1826-00x V10 eeprom: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883 - so that perhaps someone here can decipher how one is identified with only 32MB and the other with 128MB.
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby PymbleSoftware » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:59 pm

recondas wrote:Since both have 128MB of memory, hamei was trying to point out that if you can determine how the Fuel defines one as a V10 and the as a V12, Fuel V12s might not be so rare/expensive. That was also why jan-jaap started the thread that contained the contents of the 030-1826-00x V10 eeprom: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=16725883 - so that perhaps someone here can decipher how one is identified with only 32MB and the other with 128MB.


Oh, ok.
I had already linked to the Jan-Jaap EPROM disassembly topic in: http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/VPro#See_Also

It might be very enlightening for some if this information was collated and added to the wiki...

I have created:
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V12
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V10
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V8
http://www.nekochan.net/wiki/V6

If someone was successful with a hackenV12 we could add something to the HowTo category.


hamei wrote:Pymble : the late model slot-mount V10's and V12's are physically the same. The earlier revisions were different but apparently later on the price of memory was less than the price of stocking two versions of the card, so they did the ol' "charge $5,000 to clip the gold wire to make it twice as powerful" trick. It might have made their customers happier if they'd given the V10 128 megs of memory and put 512 on the V12 but Profit is Our Most Important Product !!


Extremely interesting. :D

hamei wrote:The Octane V10 and V12 have similar features to the Fuel / Tezro / Onyx350 Infinite Performance, but a different physical layout and no DVI connector.

Yes, but no. My V12 in my Octane2 has DCD (ie DVI) and the 13W3 is inaccessible... viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724761

hamei wrote:Maybe that's why SGI went tits-up, too. Does value never enter into the calculations of the buffoons running our society ?


Maybe SGI went tits-up due to karma, or maybe thats me over thinking things. For some reason the largest bookstore in the city was over run by Buddhist monks today, you couldn't move without tripping over someone in saffron robes. No idea what they were looking for.

jan-jaap wrote:

Code: Select all

                       part#          eeprom id
V10, Fuel, old rev.    030_1725_00x   ASTODYB
V10, Fuel, new rev.    030_1826_00x   ASTODYV10
V12, Fuel              030_1726_00x   ASTODY
V12, Tezro             030_1884_00x   ODY128B1_2

'AST' is for 'Asterix', the codename for Fuel. 'ODY' is short for Odyssey, the codename for VPro graphics.


I'd like to add that table to the wiki.

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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby jan-jaap » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:01 am

PymbleSoftware wrote:
jan-jaap wrote:

Code: Select all

                       part#          eeprom id
V10, Fuel, old rev.    030_1725_00x   ASTODYB
V10, Fuel, new rev.    030_1826_00x   ASTODYV10
V12, Fuel              030_1726_00x   ASTODY
V12, Tezro             030_1884_00x   ODY128B1_2

'AST' is for 'Asterix', the codename for Fuel. 'ODY' is short for Odyssey, the codename for VPro graphics.


I'd like to add that table to the wiki.

Go for it.

hamei wrote:Tezro and Fuel V10's and V12's are the same.

You can put a Fuel V12 in a Tezro and it will work. They are functionally the same. But as the table shows, they have different product names and part numbers. And Recondas noticed that the Tezro version has an extra fan header: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724415#p7332881

PS: and I can tell that his Tezro has a V12 from a Fuel ;) (Not that he had kept that a secret).
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Re: What's the fair price for V12 ?

Unread postby hamei » Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:25 am

jan-jaap wrote:And Recondas noticed that the Tezro version has an extra fan header: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=16724415#p7332881

Is that just a header soldered onto a pad on the same base board, or is it a different circuit board entirely ? I had a Fuel V10 and a Fuel V12 sitting side by side and could not find any difference between them with my 6" magnifying glass. (Other than the part numbers, that is)


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