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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Posts: 9488
kubatyszko wrote:
What I have already done with ATX is good enough and allows me to use it as a PSU replacement with env monitoring off.

It's a match made in Heaven - a mainboard that wants env monitoring off and a power supply that wants env monitoring off. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:18 am
Posts: 330
Location: Tokyo
So I made it !!!

I was actually on the perfectly right track, but my math was wrong,
Also the frequency I measured from the NMB PSU must have been wrong.

The mistake I made:

FAN generates frequency of 2 clicks per rotation with 50% duty cycle.
What I did wrong, is that I calculated required frequency per RPM, and not rotation - which is a difference between say 30 RPS and 1800 RPM.

That led me to think I need frequencies in 4000-6000HZ range, while all I needed was anything above 60Hz (>60Hz is universal for all the Fans in Fuel).

And indeed 5KHz was totally right to give me 60-130000 RPM, because this is the correct value.
63Hz should give this much:

(63/2) * 60 # (number of rotations per second / 2 clicks per second) * (60 seconds in a minute)
= 1890 RPM

At roughly 63 Hz, I get 1753 RPM reading which makes it more of 58Hz, but that's fine as long it's above the 1600 threshold.

What led me to finding out my mistake - I bought a couple fan's (to optionally replace the ones in Fuel), and checked their signal from Tacho.

There are multiple ways to create square wave generator, I did mine in two: using NE555 (+ 2 resistors, 2 capacitors and zener diode to limit the voltage), and using 70HC14 (schmitt trigger inverter, + 1 resistor, 2 capacitors and zener diode).

NE555 gives me much more "square" wave but that doesn't matter much.
Parts:

NE555:
1 * NE555
1 * 1800 Ohm
1 * 470 KOhm
1 * 0.022 uF
1 * 0.01 uF
This yields 69.6 Hz at 50.095% duty cycle

(Schematic here: http://www.royalrife.com/555_calculator.html)


Inverter:
1 * 74HC14 (I used Texas Instruments, another one from Hitachi HD7414P didn't want to work for me).
1 * 470 KOhm
1 * 0.01uF
1 * 0.047 uF
1 * 3.9V Zener diode

(Schematic here: http://www.national.com/assets/en/board ... rguide.pdf - this is actually schematic of the whole evaluation board of LN81 - which has the same function as DS1780)

The Inverter-based solution has an advantage (5 of them in fact), with 1 chip you can generate 6 independent square waves - just in case if somebody wanted to fool the Fuel in regards to other fan's :), another minor advantage of inverter-based is that you don't need to worry about duty cycle, it's always 50%.

The generators are powered from 5V (NOT 12V), I used 5V from pin 17.

I DID NOT bother using FANC pin - this is NC on my adapters, maybe in the future I could make the oscillator adjust frequency to the signal from FANC - but that's not necessary for anything - would make sense only if Fuel actually verified feedback while controlling Fan speed...

Also, There is NO FAN MONITORING in the ATX PSU AT ALL - if it fries, you're on your own, (but you have working adapter and can simply replace the PSU with another one :P ).

While playing, I fried 2 fan's - turns out that tacho logic is very sensitive to sloppy people who forget to swap the pins around - but I had 3 more which worked well.

I bought:

2* Enermax UCTB8 1600 RPM (80mm)
2* Omega Typhoon CFZ-60F 3000 RPM (60mm)
1 * some kind of used noname (80mm)

I actually did replace XIO fans with Omega's but had to revert the process, since those spinned at some 1450 RPM's which was below the threshold (I want to achieve perfect result with no env off/on tricks).
Enermax fan didn't turn out good either, as it spins at 1100 !!! which is whole 20 RPM's below the threshold :(

I'll keep looking for more suitable fans.

Now a very interesting fact, the reason I did manage to get 2000+ RPM's at over 20KHz frequency - (this should not be possible - as 20Khz would mean some 600k RPM's),
The DS1780 uses internal 22.5KHz clock to drive the counter - somehow I must have managed to get close to sync with that clock and it started to think the periodical going out-of-sync was the real signal :P.
That means the maximum theoretical fan speed that DS1780 could measure would be < 600000 RPM's - useless for Jet engines :D
Interesting huh ?

---

Here is a "screenshot" :P

Code:
Description    State       Warning RPM  Current RPM
-------------- ----------  -----------  -----------
FAN 0  EXHAUST     Active          920            0
FAN 1       HD     Active         1560            0
FAN 2      PCI     Active         1120            0
FAN 3    XIO 1     Active         1600            0
FAN 4    XIO 2     Active         1600            0
FAN 5       PS    Enabled         1600         1753


And below are the pictures.


Attachments:
File comment: Installed and kicking
P1020186.JPG
P1020186.JPG [ 135.65 KiB | Viewed 879 times ]
File comment: And under the skirt
P1020182.JPG
P1020182.JPG [ 116.02 KiB | Viewed 879 times ]
File comment: View from the top on the "fan simulator"
P1020177.JPG
P1020177.JPG [ 79.07 KiB | Viewed 879 times ]
File comment: "Almost" square wave
P1020176.JPG
P1020176.JPG [ 130.71 KiB | Viewed 879 times ]
File comment: Achieved 63Hz
P1020173.JPG
P1020173.JPG [ 90.29 KiB | Viewed 879 times ]

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Last edited by kubatyszko on Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 12:39 am 
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Awesome!

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Posts: 92
Sweet I love hardware hacks like this. Now all we need is an adapter PCB with the connectors and oscillator circuits :D


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:43 pm 
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Posts: 330
Location: Tokyo
There's no point making PCB for swapping 24 wires + circuit with whole 4 components.
PCB will also make for bad cooling and it will be hard to place it inside of the chassis.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Posts: 9488
kubatyszko wrote:
At roughly 63 Hz, I get 1753 RPM reading which makes it more of 58Hz, but that's fine as long it's above the 1600 threshold.

This is very cool and I imagine a bunch of Fuel owners owe you a big thanks !

But I have to admit I'm a little disappointed in the lowly 1600 rpm value. 300,000 was a lot more impressive :D

Quote:
The Inverter-based solution has an advantage (5 of them in fact), with 1 chip you can generate 6 independent square waves - just in case if somebody wanted to fool the Fuel in regards to other fan's :), another minor advantage of inverter-based is that you don't need to worry about duty cycle, it's always 50%.

This might be a good trick for using alternate low-noise fans in other boxes, like the O300 or O350. Of course, one would lose the environment monitoring .... do you feel like another project ? How about a ten percent signal amplifier ? That would give us several other options for fans that are just a tiny bit too slow, especially at startup ...


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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:51 am 
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Posts: 330
Location: Tokyo
Good idea, challenge accepted :)
I could employ the same device in my O200 - making this beast quiet would greatly reduce earthquakes in the region.
But since this is nowhere high on my list it will take some time...
Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:44 pm 
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kubatyszko wrote:
Good idea, challenge accepted :)
[...]
But since this is nowhere high on my list it will take some time...

Heh - we've waited this long, waiting a year or two longer isn't that big a deal. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:52 pm 
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This is awesome news!
So in short, my original idea of a converter cable with some additional logic to fool the environmental monitoring wasn't that far off after all?

How generic can the PSU be? What are the ratings?

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:33 am 
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Location: Tokyo
Technically any ATX PSU will do, but you need certain levels of power to make the Fuel run:

Quote:
RockPower 550W PSU, ATX2.2, model LW-6550HG (used for ~11$), and another AQTIS 600W AP-600GR (about the same price)
I decided to use the RP - since its power levels are much closer to my Fuel's NMB (lacks a little on the 3V3 and 5Vsb).
(NMB supplies: 27A on 5V, 16A on 12VIO, 18A on 12Vdig, 45A on 3.3V, 3A on 5Vsb, and 0.6A on -12V)


I've never seen ordinary ATX PSU that would satisfy all those levels, so try to get as close as possible.
It of course needs at least 4-pin P4 connector (the 6-pin for PCI-X might also do but I haven't tried).
And don't be deceived by the overall power - my 600W PSU has lower levels than 550W PSU (the former has more on 12V rail though).

If your PSU has tacho signal on the internal fan you can also try feeding it directly into Fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:27 am 
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Probably not close enough to ramq to make shipping practical, but if anyone is looking for an ATX PS to mod for use with a Fuel, I still have the generic Sparkle ATX2.2 FSP460-460PFN power supply mentioned earlier in this thread. The generic ATX 2.2 Sparkle carries the same Sparkle part number (FSP460-460PFN) and 460w power rating as the Fuel WTX Sparkle, but would require kubatyszko's adaptation for use in a Fuel.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Location: Tokyo
Good point, the sparkle is one of the very few that would match power levels perfectly.
I think we could try and assemble a list of tested PSU's that work well, bu there are so many of them it may knot make much sense...
I actually asked NMB (minebea) for specs, source and binary image of the PIC, so far all I got is that they are out of pc supply business but they will forward my request to the tech guys :-D

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 am 
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Location: Sweden
Cool.
Well actually what one would need is a list of all the voltage rails demands just to have a list to compare with.
I know all those ricer gamerguys always keep en eye out on spec numbers when they're shopping for power supplies, so the manufacturers seem to be pretty good at specifying amps.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:57 am 
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Posts: 330
Location: Tokyo
Demand varies, this is the trick, it will vary mostly depending on CPU - 500 vs. 900 MHz will affect the power reqs. pretty significantly, also, number of HDD's, PCI cards etc.

I have: 1TB SATA, 73GB SCSI disks, 4 PCI cards: Gbit, LSI U320, SATA controller and Audigy SB0090 in a 600Mhz, 2GB RAM box - and my box runs with no issues on the ATX I got (or actually ran some some short time I had it on, now I've installed the NMB back).
When adding more devices or upgrading CPU the setup may still work fine, but as soon as it gets close to capacity some voltage will likely drop - this is a good indicator when to look for better PSU :).
So my advice for whoever tries ATX in Fuel would be to keep watching "env" on the L1 periodically.

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 Post subject: Re: Fuel PSU problems
Unread postPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:20 am 
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Location: Sweden
Well, looking at whatever photos our fellow members has come up with, these might be useful:

A photo of the label/specifications of the NMB power supply used in the Fuel: download/file.php?id=2823084&mode=view
and the Sparkle power supply used in the Fuel: download/file.php?id=2822491&mode=view

Seems like the 430W PSU is alot beefier on the +3.3V rail.
FWIW, all Fuel PSUs I've seen so far has only been the 460W. Don't know what to judge by that, but there's two options:

A) Increased need for more juice on the +3.3V rail due to later design and customers beefing up their systems
B) Supply vs demand or simply "power effeciency"

Since we're probably never overload these systems I believe specs similar to the 460W PSU might suffice after all.
With that in mind I've come to this little table:

+3.3V 27.0A
+5V 29.0A
+12V I/O 15.0A
+12V CPU 16.5A
+5Vsb 2.0A
-12V 0.8A

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Last edited by recondas on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Edited so that one of the (now) linked photos wasn't displayed in line at 3264x2448 pixels. <recondas>


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