Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

IBM workstations/servers/mainframes and operating systems (AIX, OS/2, etc.)
Forum rules
Any posts concerning pirated software or offering to buy/sell/trade commercial software are subject to removal.
User avatar
ClassicHasClass
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:30 am

No, I know what a 425t is -- I put it in quotes for a reason. Someone slapped a 715t/33 sticker on the front, but the backplate says 425t, and it does have the Domain/OS keyboard port suggesting the original motherboard. I just never get around to dragging it out of storage since my big 9000/350 satisfies my HP jones.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

Kira
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: Central CONUS

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby Kira » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:36 am

ClassicHasClass wrote:Like POWER, I have a soft spot for PA-RISC because my first job was on a K250 and later I did contract work with a C3750. It's a very clean RISC and HP at least crammed incredible amounts of L2 in it, something Apple could have learned from with their criminally undercached designs. I came to hate HP-sUX and yet become fluent in it. Now I have two HP-sUX machines (a 9000/350 in the huge tank-like minirack and the C8000), plus a "425t" that I need to figure out if it even still works and what the hell is in it.


PA's cache hierarchy is awesome - however, it's because of L1, not L2. As far as i know, no PA-8000-series chip has a true L2 cache. The 8800/8900 have external (off-chip) DDR DRAM L2 caches with on-chip tags, but performance is dismal; they're neither immensely high-bandwidth nor low-latency (over 40 cycles LTU - and higher for back-to-back access!).

That being said: PA-8500 and up have a superb large on-chip L1, with fairly low load-to-use latency. CPU people used to call PA-8xxx series chips "SRAM blocks that happen to have cores attached", which is basically true, and it's continued in the PA-derived Itanium family, which all have huge gobs of SRAM on-die (something like 75% of the Itanium 9300's transistor count is L3 cache!)

Nothing like cheap, low-latency loads to make a workload fly. :D

User avatar
ClassicHasClass
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:42 am

I guess it boils down to how you view it, but I'd still call that an L2 cache even if it's not as good as it could be. HP certainly did in all the spec sheets and it serves the same role.

EPIC/VLIW certainly needs huge cache for those instruction word sizes. :D
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

Kira
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: Central CONUS

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby Kira » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:49 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:I guess it boils down to how you view it, but I'd still call that an L2 cache even if it's not as good as it could be. HP certainly did in all the spec sheets and it serves the same role.

EPIC/VLIW certainly needs huge cache for those instruction word sizes. :D


Yes, IPF is sensitive to cache - although not inherently because it's EP, but because it has an insane 41-bit op size plus a 5-bit template field for every three ops. This is the downside of having a massive number of GPR's, plus predication. :( For what it's worth, though, Itanium also has some density-friendly things too - for instance, not all instructions in a bundle have to issue concurrently, which reduces the need for NOP padding. In general, Itanium's cache is still a work of art (single cycle load-to-use from L1!) and performs magnificently.

Tilera's ISA is VLIW and puts either 2 or 3 ops (depending on the exact op type - some can only be issued as part of a 2-op bundle) into a 64-bit instruction word. As a result, its density is actually comparable to or superior to commercial RISCs.

Going to stop derailing this hilarious thread rsn...

User avatar
Raion-Fox
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1438
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:01 pm
Location: near King George, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:49 am

I think I may dig one of the X86 boxes out of storage, with a fire extinguisher nearby, and set it up with Free or NetBSD and use it as a remote X server to bolster the limits of Mima. I also may get an Octane 2 from a friend who found one for free so that will help too.
:O3x02L: R16000 700MHz 8GB RAM kanna
:Octane: R12000 300MHz SI 896MB RAM yuuka
:Octane2: R12000A 400MHz V6 2.5GB RAM
:Indy: (Acclaim) R4600 133MHz XL Graphics 32MB RAM
:Indy: (Challenge S) R4600 133MHz (MIPS III Build Server)

I am probably posting from yangxiaolong, HP Z230 with Xeon E3-1230v3, 16GB RAM, GeForce 750ti, and running NetBSD and Windows 8.1 Embedded.
Owner and operator of http://irix.pw

Kira
Posts: 83
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:04 pm
Location: Central CONUS

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby Kira » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:16 pm

You could always get a zx2000 or zx6000 - they're pretty fast (by Old RISC Crap standards) and have good OS support.

Be advised, zx6000's are pretty loud.

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10435
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby hamei » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:58 pm

Kira wrote:You could always get a zx2000 or zx6000 - they're pretty fast (by Old RISC Crap standards) and have good OS support.

Be advised, zx6000's are pretty loud.

Computing as a hobby is mort. You can play with old junk which is interesting but a dead end, or you can diddle yourself with whatever worthless crap the gnu fanboyz are in love with this week, or you can give up.

Truth is, home computing is now like Oakland : there's no there, there.
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

User avatar
ClassicHasClass
Donor
Donor
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:12 pm
Location: Sunny So Cal
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:25 pm

Hey, man, computers are much more fun as a hobby -- well, the old ones -- than they ever were as a career.

But then I'm collecting as a hobby the computers I used to work on when it was a career.

Now that I think about it, maybe you're right.
smit happens.

:Fuel: bigred, 900MHz R16K, 4GB RAM, V12 DCD, 6.5.30
:Indy: indy, 150MHz R4400SC, 256MB RAM, XL24, 6.5.10
:Indigo2IMP: purplehaze, 175MHz R10000, Solid IMPACT
probably posted from Image bruce, Quad 2.5GHz PowerPC 970MP, 16GB RAM, Mac OS X 10.4.11
plus IBM POWER6 p520 * Apple Network Server 500 * RDI PrecisionBook * BeBox * Solbourne S3000 * Commodore 128 * many more...

User avatar
hamei
Posts: 10435
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 4:10 pm
Location: over the rainbow

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby hamei » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:31 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:Hey, man, computers are much more fun as a hobby -- well, the old ones -- than they ever were as a career.

I can't talk about computing for computing's sake but as a means to make things, computing in the seventies wasn't exactly fun so much as, "Wa ! Can you believe I just entered that entire program in thirty seconds ! If I had to type it in it would have taken three hours and had fifty mistakes !" A serial connection to the teletype was waay cool !

The PDP-8's that ran K&T mills still had to be toggled through the bootstrap procedure to enter their executive program. Good thing they had core :)

And when they screwed up, there goes $3,000 to repair that 32k core board. That's in 1975 dollars ...

But an NC machine was ten times faster than a human with better quality. Even if the steenkin computers drove you crazy, at least there was some gain. So when you spent your time and money on some "new and improved !" doo-wacka-doo, at least you felt like you were getting something.

(If I had it to do over again I would not spend ten cents on any of that crap. Today you could make a better living doing onesy-twosies by hand, since there are so few places who can do that now.)

As a hobby or an interest, computers were nifty because you could see almost endless potential. OpenDoc. Display Ghostscript. The Workplace Shell. SMP. Threading. Out of twenty different choices, there was going to be something you'd find suitable.

Now what do we have ? javascript ? dynamic html to push advertising swill down people's throats ?

Shit, that's what we have. GNU has become the monster it hated while the commercial enterprises have become what monopolies always do : "You will buy what we want you to buy at the company store, or die. Good luck, sucker. Drop off your cash on the way out, would you ?"

If this was the cost of progress, well, maybe. But what progress ? There hasn't been anything of value happening in personal computing for a good ten years.

Discouraging :(
I spent a fortune on booze, birds, and fast cars ... the rest I just squandered

User avatar
uridium
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:05 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby uridium » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:11 pm

@ CommodoreJohn:
If you find someone doing a prod run of the HIL<->PS/2 please let me know. I've got a 425T I'd like to get doing some useful things. Not sure if it's stuck in domain mode. :)
Al Boyanich
adb -w -P "world> " -k /dev/meta/galaxy/ksyms /dev/god/brain

User avatar
commodorejohn
Posts: 658
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby commodorejohn » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:20 pm

I wouldn't get your hopes up for a production run of anything 9000-related. I got my HIL converter from another hobbyist, it's a third-party item, and I'm pretty sure it was manufactured in the mid- to late '90s, when those machines might still have been out in the field somewhere. You'd be better off either trying to find another hobbyist with a spare or trying to hack something up with an Arduino or something than waiting for anybody to do a production run of the things.
Computers: Amiga 1200, DEC VAXStation 4000/60, DEC MicroPDP-11/73
Synthesizers: Roland JX-10/SH-09/HS-80/MT-32/D-50, Yamaha DX7-II/V50/TX7/TG33/FB-01, Korg MS-20 Mini/ARP Odyssey/DW-8000/M1, Ensoniq SQ-80, E-mu Emax HD/Proteus-2, Casio CZ-5000, Moog Satellite, Sequential Circuits Prophet-600

robespierre
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:28 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby robespierre » Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:04 am

The chances of getting an Arduino to do anything at wire speed are... remote.
:PI: :O2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indigo2IMP:

User avatar
Alver
Posts: 773
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:46 pm
Location: Wetteren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby Alver » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:18 am

Kira wrote:You could always get a zx2000 or zx6000 - they're pretty fast (by Old RISC Crap standards) and have good OS support.

Be advised, zx6000's are pretty loud.

Wait, what? My zx6000 is a *lot* quiter than my x86 peecee home server. Granted, I don't push it very hard. If it weren't for the 3 SCSI disks, I doubt it'd be noticeable at all.
while (!asleep()) sheep++;

User avatar
vishnu
Donor
Donor
Posts: 3189
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby vishnu » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:25 pm

Alver wrote:Wait, what? My zx6000 is a *lot* quiter than my x86 peecee home server. Granted, I don't push it very hard. If it weren't for the 3 SCSI disks, I doubt it'd be noticeable at all.

Better check it maybe the fans are dead... :shock:
Project:
Temporarily lost at sea...
Plan:
World domination! Or something...

:Tezro: :Octane2:

User avatar
smj
Donor
Donor
Posts: 1666
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Berkeley, CA, USA, NA, Earth, Sol
Contact:

Re: Thinking of grabbing a POWER server

Unread postby smj » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:30 pm

Remember, Alver was an HP minion once upon a time -- he could've actually gotten hold of the ZX6k deskside kit. I read (somewhere) that the deskside config was a lot quieter...
Then? :IRIS3130: ... Now? :O3x02L: :A3504L:- :A3502L: :1600SW:+MLA :Fuel: :Octane2: :Octane: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: ... Other: DEC :BA213: :BA123: Sun, DG AViiON, NeXT :Cube:


Return to “IBM”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest