VMS End of life

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SAQ
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby SAQ » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:27 am

VMS source has always been available for a price under the right agreement (for a while it was distributed on microfiche). The "silent Open" was added when they made changes to give POSIX compliance, and refers to open systems, not open source.

It's very solid, quite secure, and still is about the best clustering OS out there.

Open vs proprietary software: In the cathedral the bishop tells you what to do, and as long as the bishop knows what he's doing you'll have plenty of people keeping the foundations strong and cleaning out the sumps. In the bazaar it seems most of the people want to work on the glitzy fancy stuff, so you get 15 different UI toolkits that all somehow look very similar and yet the scheduler keeps a bug that can impact performance severely for a few years. Yes, FOSS stuff is amazing, but you'll note the best projects have a strong "bishop" (or would that be an elder?)
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby SAQ » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:33 am

smj wrote:No, HP's lack of vision and investment avoided success with VMS - perhaps with reason, based on customers and market trends, and perhaps not. But slashing your R&D budget below industry norms across the board is a more likely culprit...


HP didn't help (and, indeed, this seems to be very common with their acquisitions - buy the company, keep their products on life support as long as you have to, then cancel them and wonder why the customers evaluate other options), but the VMS issues started with DEC back when they had all the OS confusion (VMS, OSF/1-DUNIX-Tru64, NT,Linux) and were (a) not seen as pushing UNIX or VMS (because they were pushing Alpha NT so much more) and (b) created the two lines of equipment that were essentially the same except for some being locked to Linux/NT only. Compaq/HP "kicked the neglect up a notch" but didn't start it. VMS has also been generally a more expensive option, with no cohesive "this is why you should consider VMS" strategy (the last attempt, the "exploding servers" publicity bit, didn't really build on VMS' strengths any more than Windows or Linux).
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:58 am

you'll note the best projects have a strong "bishop" (or would that be an elder?)


Which brings us back to the axiom that the most efficient form of government is a dictatorship, so we get BDFLs like Guido and Larry.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby R-ten-K » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:52 am

Axiom does not mean what you want it to mean...
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby urbancamo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:42 pm

I think it's a very sad announcement although to be honest I think VMS has been under the chop for so long it was inevitable. For it to last until 2020 is really quite amazing when you think about it. I say this given the lack of features that really are required to do business in the modern world. I am fully aware of the benefits of VMS (clustering, security etc.) but it really hasn't had any serious new development in at least 10 years. When Stephen Hoffman can intelligently rattle off a list of show stoppers for modern development you really should be listening. The sad fact is that without substantial investment and development effort the operating system really is stuck in the 90's.

From a hobbyist perspective I would really like to see the hobbyist program to continue. I love the environment, I celebrate the diversity, documentation and stability. It makes a great juxtaposition from virtually all 'modern' operating systems, and I get a lovely, warm, comfortable feeling whenever I'm at the dollar prompt. Unfortunately the diversity is really the Achilles heal when trying to leverage Open Source software. The fact is that the majority of new software development these days relies on a substantial amount of open source software. Windows and Unix are close enough to have the gap bridged, but OpenVMS has never gotten to the point where convergence was realistic in this perspective.

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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby SAQ » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:31 pm

I just realized that this is another milestone - the last bit of DEC to be buried. Compaq killed off VAX, HP killed off Tru64 shortly after buying it and Alpha somewhat later (those pesky customers - they kept buying it instead of quietly going to Integrity). StorageWorks was dropped, now OVMS.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby hamei » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:11 pm

urbancamo wrote:I say this given the lack of features that really are required to do business in the modern world. I am fully aware of the benefits of VMS (clustering, security etc.) but it really hasn't had any serious new development in at least 10 years. When Stephen Hoffman can intelligently rattle off a list of show stoppers for modern development you really should be listening. The sad fact is that without substantial investment and development effort the operating system really is stuck in the 90's.

Unfortunately the diversity is really the Achilles heal when trying to leverage Open Source software. The fact is that the majority of new software development these days relies on a substantial amount of open source software.

This is the bullshit that passes for informed comment these days ? Urban, people are exactly the same as they have been for 100,000 years. They need exactly the same things. The rest of this doublespeak is just a bunch of gobbledygook. "Modern software development ..." who gives a rat's ass ? You could take all software development and shove it off a bridge and we'd be way better off.

Software hasn't done shit in twenty years. It's worthless.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby jwp » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:46 pm

Good points about open source vs. proprietary. Using the IBM example of supporting their mainframe platforms, it's obvious that HP could have kept VMS as a major long-term OS choice. But IBM still does active development on z/OS, from what I understand. HP has not been investing money in keeping VMS up to date with the latest hardware. They could if they wanted to, but the longterm vision just isn't there.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby ClassicHasClass » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:19 pm

R-ten-K wrote:Axiom does not mean what you want it to mean...


But I'm pretty sure pedantic does.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby Winnili » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:43 pm

HP finally put an end to VMS, in other words: VMS an end of a waste of my life. I guess I should be thankful that they didn't drag it out too much, because it was (indeed) obvious that things were going nowhere. Even Tru64 UNIX, butchered many years ago, is in several areas more up to date than VMS currently is.

I'm so extremely glad I sold nearly all of my “AXP” and “I64” systems off, except a few Multia/UDBs (but luckily there's still, say, NetBSD/alpha).

To conclude this post, one big fuck you to my favorite scumpany HP. :)
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby R-ten-K » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:07 pm

ClassicHasClass wrote:
R-ten-K wrote:Axiom does not mean what you want it to mean...


But I'm pretty sure pedantic does.


Oh snap!

It's just that some of us come from countries that are, or were up to some recent point, dictatorships. And we got a chance to experience, first hand, that them dictatorships are far from efficient, as far as systems of governance go of course. Thus the axiomatic business...


Anyhoo, carry on...
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby urbancamo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:32 pm

hamei wrote:This is the bullshit that passes for informed comment these days ? Urban, people are exactly the same as they have been for 100,000 years. They need exactly the same things. The rest of this doublespeak is just a bunch of gobbledygook. "Modern software development ..." who gives a rat's ass ? You could take all software development and shove it off a bridge and we'd be way better off.

Software hasn't done shit in twenty years. It's worthless.


Sorry, but I totally disagree with this statement. I personally would see the architectures and protocols that we have to use in web development substantially different but how you can argue that software hasn't had a significant impact on the 'average Jo' is beyond me.

With regard to VMS lacking required features - there may be niches such as embedded development where it might not be so, but one feature for example, Unicode, is now glaringly lacking from VMS compared to other current operating systems. As far as I'm concerned the lack of Unicode support is a serious hindrance to developing modern software. The company I work for runs their online application in seven different languages, this would be next to impossible using VMS (in terms of interoperability) except for Java support. However, Java basically turns it's back on virtually all of the good stuff in VMS which subsequently negates its' benefits.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby urbancamo » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:38 pm

What annoys me personally is the announcement that VMS will not be ported to Poulson. Having been a laughing stock with regard to performance since the initial development of Itanium this generation of the processor appears to finally be delivering on some of the promises of the architecture. VMS won't see this benefit.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby commodorejohn » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:58 am

urbancamo wrote:Sorry, but I totally disagree with this statement. I personally would see the architectures and protocols that we have to use in web development substantially different but how you can argue that software hasn't had a significant impact on the 'average Jo' is beyond me.

It's not that there haven't been noticeable impacts, it's that they haven't been ones that are really all that great. It's cool that we've got forums like this, and we can send email across the world many times faster than it takes to mail a letter, but overall were we really that much worse off in, say, the '70s or '80s for not having "modern" software? Seems to me we got along just fine back then.

SAQ wrote:I just realized that this is another milestone - the last bit of DEC to be buried. Compaq killed off VAX, HP killed off Tru64 shortly after buying it and Alpha somewhat later (those pesky customers - they kept buying it instead of quietly going to Integrity). StorageWorks was dropped, now OVMS.

That's what really burns about this - HP having been trying to bury OpenVMS since they acquired it, this is just them finally getting it positioned properly in the grave. It's all politics...there ought to be a law that a company that buys out a product line is obligated to support it indefinitely, then maybe we wouldn't get so many companies that acquire something for the purpose of squashing and/or "buying" its customer base.
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Re: VMS End of life

Unread postby R-ten-K » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:10 pm

It's not that there haven't been noticeable impacts, it's that they haven't been ones that are really all that great. It's cool that we've got forums like this, and we can send email across the world many times faster than it takes to mail a letter, but overall were we really that much worse off in, say, the '70s or '80s for not having "modern" software? Seems to me we got along just fine back then.



Computing technologies are quantitative in nature, which is why I suspect these sort of qualitative/subjective debates usually lead to nowhere. E.g. From my perspective, there have been some fantastic advances and some great technologies have happened quite recently, and are happening as we speak.

We tend to mistake our first contact, or the mastering of a specific implementation or process, with the actual essence of the technology itself. I'll assume you came of age when home computers were starting to be adopted. I bet you that if you interact with a young kid these days, a person that has grown in a world where the internet has happened and it is taken for granted, you two will have a completely different mental concepts or images for what "computer," or what "great" in the context of measuring a technology mean to either of you.
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