an observation

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foetz
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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:47 pm

hamei wrote:Five years ago it was okay, if not perfect

it always sucked :P
but indeed i have to agree it got even worse. i even stopped filing bug reports or sending patches because ... some of the popular reasons:
- they mark it as fixed although it's not
- they don't see why it's a bug
- they just don't care at all

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Re: an observation

Unread postby cybercow » Wed Mar 11, 2015 11:25 am

I work with both mercurial and git, they're almost the same from user perspective, for eg. I miss something like git stash on hg, for those nice moments when you screw all things up, and reseting to head would make them even worse.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby wenp » Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:24 am

guardian452 wrote:hmmm, slight addition:
8% run more than one operating system on the same machine
50% have a Windows PC desktop or laptop
58% have a Mac desktop or laptop
5% have a Unix or Linux computer


Curious how many of those 8% are virtual machine vs. dual-boot or boot camp ?

That survey tells us a lot less than it appears to, since it doesn't give a breakdown by major. I'd guess that nearly all *nix users are Engineering or CS majors, and that most humanities majors are on Macs. So it probably hasn't changed from the height of the Linux fanboy epidemic.

I started with Linux to get away from Windows 98. Many years later, I hate going back to Windows because I lose the advantage of hard-gained experience in Unixy tools and methods. Yet I spend half my time on Windows machines. I used to (mildly) proselytize for Linux, but I just realized it has been years since I recommended it to anyone. If I were a student today, I would investigate Linux (and all the free *nixes), but I'm pretty sure I'd make an informed decision to stick with Windows.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:17 pm

The only problem with that is that Microsoft keeps kneecapping Windows by gradually eroding its advantages (backwards compatibility and a broad slate of compatible software and simple no-nonsense UI) while try to chase the success that's so consistently eluding them in the tablet market. Windows 8 is damn near unusable until you employ third-party hacks to make it less retarded, and even Windows 7 did stupid shit like bring that goddamn Office 2007 Playskool-activity-center bar into Explorer and remove a lot of the options for making it behave like older versions. Windows 10 doesn't look to be seriously reversing the trend, either.

I keep going back and forth on the free Unices (love the concept, hate the way 90% of developers don't give two shits for good UI, and Linux/the major desktop environments in particular seems to have gotten so invested in the idea of taking over for Windows that they've started copying everything it's doing wrong to boot,) but the one thing that continues to make me want to make it work as a daily driver is the prospect of being able to just set myself up with a single software environment and then never have to put up with stupid UI changes again.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby wenp » Sat Mar 14, 2015 5:45 pm

commodorejohn wrote:The only problem with that is that Microsoft keeps kneecapping Windows by gradually eroding its advantages

Heh, heh. Still using WinXP when I can.

...prospect of being able to just set myself up with a single software environment and then never have to put up with stupid UI changes again.

I've finally accepted that's never going to happen. Even if I make a comfortable setup in NetBSD or OS/2, it's like living on a desert island when practically everyone I might want to exchange software with is on Windows. I've basically resigned myself to using software whose design is repulsive but objectively allows me to get more work done. Is that wisdom or the defeatism of old age?

Still, when I think about coding my projects just for Windows, I become really, really sad.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:29 pm

commodorejohn wrote:Linux/the major desktop environments in particular seems to have gotten so invested in the idea of taking over for Windows that they've started copying everything it's doing wrong

and never came even close to getting serious market shares in that regard which even more makes that a total shot in the bucket :P

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Re: an observation

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:24 pm

wenp wrote:I've finally accepted that's never going to happen. Even if I make a comfortable setup in NetBSD or OS/2, it's like living on a desert island when practically everyone I might want to exchange software with is on Windows. I've basically resigned myself to using software whose design is repulsive but objectively allows me to get more work done. Is that wisdom or the defeatism of old age?

Man, it's not even about purity of design or anything, it's just so. Much. Hassle. From my first PC running Windows 95 up through my most recent XP installs, I've been able to establish and maintain a consistent workflow for just about everything I do; even where later versions made irritating changes, dealing with it was as simple as finding a couple options in the system settings to revert to the old behaviors and there you were. Ever since Vista, though, not only have they been slowly strangling backwards compatibility and making stupid changes in the UI, they've been removing all the options to fix the stupid things, because somebody in the High Church of St. Sinofsky has a bug up their ass about people not appreciating all their retarded design decisions.

So my workflow of over a decade (at the time) was broken, and it only continued to get broken-er, for no other reason than that somebody at Microsoft decided that users should no longer get to have any say in how their OS behaved. My choices, then, were: to adapt to the new version and hope that subsequent changes didn't make things any worse (they did); to keep using XP indefinitely, trusting that a decent antivirus would keep me safe when the security updates ran out and hoping that manufacturers would continue to provide drivers for their hardware (this is mostly what I've done since that time); or, to attempt to move to an alternative that, while it had a higher initial learning curve, would allow me to basically be over and done with the pointless-changes treadmill after that (which I've tried repeatedly over the years, but have yet to really manage to stick with.)

(And, of course, all that time I've had the pleasure of repeatedly being told that I'm a horrible unreasonable stupid no-good Luddite for wanting to just be able to learn one way of doing things and then stick with it by countless people on the Internet, to which I reply: why is it my job to waste my time adapting my workflow to suit someone else's demands? Isn't the whole point of personal computers for them to serve the user, rather than the manufacturer? Ha ha, no, of course it isn't, that's why everything is getting locked down now.)
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Re: an observation

Unread postby chicaneuk » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:57 am

And this is why I've settled on just using MacOS X. The downside being you need to spend a fortune to get any reasonably performant hardware versus what you get in commodity PC land, but the OS is coherent and fast and has the benefit of being able to drop to a shell at any point, and run X11, and all the other UNIX or GNU Linux tools you love. It truly is the best of both worlds, and honestly for me, is by far and away my favourite OS right now. And you have the advantage of being able to get native versions of the Microsoft Office suite, and Adobe applications, and plenty of other stuff that you might ordinarily only be able to run on Windows.

I know Apple always divide opinion though..
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Re: an observation

Unread postby guardian452 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:13 pm

Ditto everything chicaneuk says except on price. Apple is so cheap compared to any other unix vendor, even linux-based OEMs, it's a no-brainer. You can get a good laptop or workstation for at or under 2k USD, and a very good one for not much more. Maybe the exchange rates aren't favorable right now ? They are way cheaper than SGI ever was...

If you compare a macbook to (say) thinkpad, not only is the apple cheaper, but then you don't have to worry about silverfish, etc :lol: I think that fiasco put me off peecees again for a while to come just when I had started looking at them again.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:40 pm

I was an OS X user for 8 years from 2005 to 2013. Why did I stop? I had an epiphany that the OS sucked ass because in the final years of using it I had various problems with the post 10.5 releases, the new x86 Macs are garbage in terms of quality ( they fucking glue batteries in the laptops! ) have higher failure rates, the OS has become more iOSified and the Aqua interface is like drinking a Shirley Temple: looks nice, works fine, but has virtually no refined functionality. I personally like CDE, Magic Desktop and other old school UNIX desktop environments because they are mature, functional and coherent. I also like E16 and i3wm, but you sacrifice amenities with those and become a Luddite.

Also on OS X it is a clusterfuck of garbage design, launchd, Mach, Aqua, and it can't even decide if its GNU, BSD or Darwin, come the fuck on did the engineers spend half their budget on blow or something?

I'm forking FreeBSD if it gets anymore of Apple's overengineered crap. Clang was fine, but launchd and many other Apple subsystems and components proposed by Jordan Hubbard and his Apple cronies are not. I think they're still bitching because OS X is a terrible server OS which is why Apple stopped their rackmount lines. Go find some other OS to ruin.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:01 pm

TeamBlackFox wrote:I was an OS X user for 8 years from 2005 to 2013. Why did I stop? I had an epiphany that the OS sucked ass because in the final years of using it I had various problems with the post 10.5 releases, the new x86 Macs are garbage in terms of quality ( they fucking glue batteries in the laptops! ) have higher failure rates, the OS has become more iOSified and the Aqua interface is like drinking a Shirley Temple: looks nice, works fine, but has virtually no refined functionality. I personally like CDE, Magic Desktop and other old school UNIX desktop environments because they are mature, functional and coherent. I also like E16 and i3wm, but you sacrifice amenities with those and become a Luddite.

Also on OS X it is a clusterfuck of garbage design, launchd, Mach, Aqua, and it can't even decide if its GNU, BSD or Darwin, come the fuck on did the engineers spend half their budget on blow or something?

I'm forking FreeBSD if it gets anymore of Apple's overengineered crap. Clang was fine, but launchd and many other Apple subsystems and components proposed by Jordan Hubbard and his Apple cronies are not. I think they're still bitching because OS X is a terrible server OS which is why Apple stopped their rackmount lines. Go find some other OS to ruin.

the sad thing about this is that there's no alternative for the desktop. windows is a joke and serious software support for linux never happened so hello osx :P

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Re: an observation

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:33 pm

What serious software are you working with on OS X that doesn't run on BSD, UNIX or Linux? They both have Firefox, Chromium, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, so that covers most office needs of browser, email, calendar, office suite etc. IDEs? Well IDEs are a joke, if the BSD projects don't need an IDE for their code, then I don't know what necessitates an IDE.

As far as other applications go there is not as much variety on BSD, UNIX and Linux vs OS X or Windows but there is in 90% of cases an application that does the job to some degree. Linux I can understand not wanting to use, but BSD or Solaris or its free derivatives is pretty good for a workstation OS.

Lenovo, the company I use for laptops and desktops does have the problem with spyware, but even the Windows users I know reimage their devices, only morons use a Windows OEM install. Since I'm using BSD or Solaris on the systems their spyware has no bearing on me, the user, and their hardware refurbs are good and new and usually competitive in pricing especially compared to the non-expandable rubbish bin Mac Pro, or the Macbook Pro with a glued in battery.
Last edited by foetz on Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby chicaneuk » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:49 pm

I think the fact you can get actual Microsoft Office for the Mac makes it very popular. Hobbyists such as us can bang on about freeware alternatives such as Thunderbird, LibreOffice and so forth but with the way Microsoft are going integrating the suite with things such as Office 365 (which has email, SharePoint like portals, team document sharing / productivity) it puts LibreOffice and the ilk in a difficult position and really does leave them quite a ways behind.

Besides, I don't personally consider it 100% compatible either with Microsoft Word / Excel, etc type documents. I don't blame that on the LibreOffice developers necessarily and I'm sure there's quite a lot of effort in Redmond to make their products NOT play completely nicely with open source alternatives, but taking a moral stand on the evils of closed source software to explain why you corrupted some collaboratively worked on documents or your reports don't render correctly, probably isn't going to wash.

Ultimately though it depends on your environment, what sort of productivity applications you actually need to use. In our place people are reasonably free to use what they like. The web development team & networks guys all use Linux, most other people use Windows, and there's steady growth in Macs (myself included).
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Re: an observation

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:30 pm

chicaneuk wrote:I think the fact you can get actual Microsoft Office for the Mac makes it very popular. Hobbyists such as us can bang on about freeware alternatives such as Thunderbird, LibreOffice and so forth but with the way Microsoft are going integrating the suite with things such as Office 365 (which has email, SharePoint like portals, team document sharing / productivity) it puts LibreOffice and the ilk in a difficult position and really does leave them quite a ways behind.

Besides, I don't personally consider it 100% compatible either with Microsoft Word / Excel, etc type documents. I don't blame that on the LibreOffice developers necessarily and I'm sure there's quite a lot of effort in Redmond to make their products NOT play completely nicely with open source alternatives, but taking a moral stand on the evils of closed source software to explain why you corrupted some collaboratively worked on documents or your reports don't render correctly, probably isn't going to wash.

Ultimately though it depends on your environment, what sort of productivity applications you actually need to use. In our place people are reasonably free to use what they like. The web development team & networks guys all use Linux, most other people use Windows, and there's steady growth in Macs (myself included).


Of course Open Office and Libre Office are not 100% compatible with MS Office/365, but they're generally good enough for most use cases, and I worked in a corporate environment ( Dell ) and I used Libre Office with ZERO issues. Granted I wasnt doing any Power Points (which are overused as is) The few times I was sent files that broke, I had the people send me a PDF with little to no complaints - they were fully aware as a part of the RMA system that it was impractical for us to use Windows ( I used RHEL 5, and later, Solaris 11 successfully ) Also Office 365 has a web component as does Google Docs, and between those two I can make use of what I need.

Apple is worse than Windows, and I say this because I've worked with Windows Server and I would rather support that, Exchange, IIS and everything else than have to support OS X.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:02 pm

TeamBlackFox wrote:What serious software are you working with on OS X that doesn't run on BSD, UNIX or Linux?

everything audio related for example and of course the always popular adobe bunch. yes, for the latter there're some alternatives but they're no real replacements


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