an observation

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Raion-Fox
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Re: an observation

Unread postby Raion-Fox » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:06 pm

From what I see the audio tool situation is best on Windows, when I produce with Vocaloids I will be using a Windows machine for that, and an Octane as the mixer/mastering system and such. OS X lacks FL Studio, and many other DAWs so the first point is null. The second point is a valid one however, but I find their new subscription model ridiculous as it stands, so not even going to bother.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby wenp » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:07 pm

TeamBlackFox wrote:...on OS X it is a clusterfuck of garbage design, launchd, Mach, Aqua, and it can't even decide if its GNU, BSD or Darwin

[with a glance in the rearview mirror at the OP topic falling behind]

People keep telling me OS X is Unix with a polished desktop ecosystem. Sounds wonderful. And when I first saw someone typesetting mathematics on a Retina display, yeah, I heard angels singing. Sometimes I think I would buy a Retina MacBook just for that one use case.

Unless you are counting Android, though, I'd say OS X is the least Unixy Unix-like system out there. You have a case-insensitive filesystem, no /proc, different organization of system libraries, a unique method of linking shared libraries, an entirely different I/O framework, and scant control over the interface. X11 apps are very unstable on OS X -- no clipboard integration, mouse driver locks up, spontaneous loss of focus.

Sure the development environment is very integrated, but also rigid, slow, and bloated. Forget about cross-platform development unless working entirely in a VM. The range of dev tools is limited compared to Unix/Linux. In general, OS X has much fewer applications ported to it than Linux or FreeBSD.

The OS X API has been no more stable than Linux and not as well documented or as neatly organized. (Hard to believe I just used Linux as an example of better organization.) The community is just as dominated by fanboys as Linux was at its worst, and in my brief experience no more helpful on technical matters.

[whoa...glanced again and I see the OP tailgating me now]

I should qualify my rant by saying that I develop apps for workstation use, and practically everyone I care about is on Windows. So for me, using another system as a dev environment is purely for my own satisfaction. Eventually, I have to build everything for Windows.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby guardian452 » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:17 pm

TeamBlackFox wrote: They both have Firefox, Chromium, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, so that covers most office needs of browser, email, calendar, office suite etc.
How about Safari, Mail, Microsoft Office...

TeamBlackFox wrote:Lenovo, the company I use for laptops and desktops does have the problem with spyware, but even the Windows users I know reimage their devices, only morons use a Windows OEM install. Since I'm using BSD or Solaris on the systems their spyware has no bearing on me, the user, and their hardware refurbs are good and new and usually competitive in pricing especially compared to the non-expandable rubbish bin Mac Pro, or the Macbook Pro with a glued in battery.
Re-imaging takes time, you have to have a valid windows license AND media. I have some panasonic toughbook peecees in the shop and at other facilities; if you don't want to use panasonic's image, you have to buy an additional windows license. At least how parent company's IT explained it to me. The mac pro has six thunderbolt sockets, expandable!, and now that laptop batteries outlast a typical working day, what is the point of being able to swap one out. I've always preferred an extension cord, anyway. Not saying these aren't valid points, just giving the counter-argument.

Besides, some of us want a computer that matches our new watch :) I'm personally kinda bummed that the new macbook, despite having eliminated "all but one" port to rule them all, still has a headphone socket. W-T-F? Bluetooth headphones have been mainstream for many years now... Also slightly bummed that it isn't a lightning socket but USB. Perhaps a good thing but I did lose a small bet... losing magsafe was not a wise change IMO, either.

TeamBlackFox wrote:Apple is worse than Windows, and I say this because I've worked with Windows Server and I would rather support that, Exchange, IIS and everything else than have to support OS X.

I see it differently because for our very limited use a combination of OSX server and a dropbox account does everything we need. Besides, I am an the engineer and do limited IT support on weekends. Our corporate office (parent company) has a bigger IT department with two people working full time, but they have their own work to do. So any additional help from them can take a month or more. It's just easier if I can do it all myself. I honestly don't know much about windows beyond using it, my wife knows more about windows than me and she has nothing but retail and entertainment experience (no IT), I just avoid it :oops: so I don't think I would be comfortable administering anything on that level. (could be room for improvement) I've been playing with unix in some capacity for 15 years. I actually started with debian, used it for a few years, then tried PC-BSD when it was in its infancy, etc. Moved me to freebsd for a while but something about the box I had was incompatible, perhaps the wifi?? Did the gentoo thing, and then irix, before switching to mac. So I am very windows-poor but unix-rich and as long as apple keeps mac OSX around I'll keep using it. If they decide that iShinyThings are more important, well, I'll probably do a hamei and keep using it, anyway. It's a doomsday that will probably never happen, at least not for several more years.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:21 pm

TeamBlackFox wrote:OS X lacks FL Studio, and many other DAWs so the first point is null.

on the contrary, osx has logic, fl studio is in the process of being ported to osx which however doesn't matter much because that's more like a hobby user toy. the only serious daw missing on osx is sadie but that's no real loss given that all other heavy weights are available.
for some companies osx even is the first choice. a bunch of high end stuff is only available for osx and with some other products it's clear that their main focus lies on osx as well.
also the daw is only the start, then it comes to plugins and that is a wasteland on linux let alone bsd and solaris

I find their new subscription model ridiculous as it stands, so not even going to bother.

me too so i stick to older versions but sadly depending on the project you just gotta have some adobe stuff at hand

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Re: an observation

Unread postby wenp » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:28 pm

foetz wrote:windows is a joke and serious software support for linux never happened so hello osx :P

The relative stability of Mac and Windows has long been a contentious issue. In the days of Mac OS, I knew a university sysadmin who would brandish his logbooks to show that Macs took twice as much maintenance time. Nowadays, you can find some discussion of the "it just works" reputation of OS X, the gist of which is that when you get down to specific cases, Macs are really not more reliable.

In certain areas of software, though, I agree Macs really have an edge. Graphics and video/audio seem to be much better. As for Windows versus Linux, I have been surprised at some of the things I find myself still going to Windows for. For example, there still isn't a hex editor for Linux to compete with the likes of 010 Edit.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:37 pm

wenp wrote:
foetz wrote:windows is a joke and serious software support for linux never happened so hello osx :P

The relative stability of Mac and Windows has long been a contentious issue. In the days of Mac OS, I knew a university sysadmin who would brandish his logbooks to show that Macs took twice as much maintenance time. Nowadays, you can find some discussion of the "it just works" reputation of OS X, the gist of which is that when you get down to specific cases, Macs are really not more reliable.

i didn't mean stability nor macs. i was referring to the usage of osx which since based on unix is lightyears ahead of windows. same goes for linux of course but there you have no apps hence the only one left is osx.

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Re: an observation

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:46 pm

guardian452 wrote:and now that laptop batteries outlast a typical working day, what is the point of being able to swap one out.

Because batteries wear out and lose their ability to hold a charge, that's why. When the battery in my ThinkPad wears out, I can shell out $20-30 on eBay and get a perfectly satisfactory replacement, rather than having to shell out for a whole new laptop.

(Of course, given that almost everybody making laptops these days builds cheap shit that begins falling apart the minute the extended warranty period expires, I suppose there's less call for that now. Still, if I were paying upwards of $1000 for a laptop, I'd damn well want to be able to replace the battery at least.)

I'm personally kinda bummed that the new macbook, despite having eliminated "all but one" port to rule them all, still has a headphone socket.

That's because you're mentally ill. Failing to discard useful features is not a shortcoming.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby robespierre » Sun Mar 15, 2015 6:37 pm

when your business model is selling $10,000 digital watches, useless $1500 toy computers are child's play.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby GL1zdA » Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:53 pm

foetz wrote:i didn't mean stability nor macs. i was referring to the usage of osx which since based on unix is lightyears ahead of windows. same goes for linux of course but there you have no apps hence the only one left is osx.

It's hard for a UNIX based system be lightyears ahead of Windows, given that UNIX is basically an implementation of an OS taking ideas from the 60s and Windows is based on ideas from the 70s. At core, both are multiuser (though Windows has slight edge with its RDP), multitasking with memory protection, network OSs. Its just shows how irrelevant the differences have became. If you take Tanenbaums book and check how concepts he describes are implemented in moderns OSs, you'll see, that they are doing all the important things (case-insensitive paths are cosmetics) the same way.

guardian452 wrote:
TeamBlackFox wrote:Lenovo, the company I use for laptops and desktops does have the problem with spyware, but even the Windows users I know reimage their devices, only morons use a Windows OEM install. Since I'm using BSD or Solaris on the systems their spyware has no bearing on me, the user, and their hardware refurbs are good and new and usually competitive in pricing especially compared to the non-expandable rubbish bin Mac Pro, or the Macbook Pro with a glued in battery.
Re-imaging takes time, you have to have a valid windows license AND media. I have some panasonic toughbook peecees in the shop and at other facilities; if you don't want to use panasonic's image, you have to buy an additional windows license. At least how parent company's IT explained it to me.

Ask Microsoft about it and I'm more than sure it's not like how it works. Here are OFFICIAL recovery images:
Windows 7: http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-recovery
Windows 8: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/wind ... resh-media
On a notebook you shouldn't even have to enter the product key - they have embedded them in BIOS. On my ThinkPad T530 I can install either Windows 7 or 8 and they don't ask for product keys and just activate.
Last edited by foetz on Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: an observation

Unread postby foetz » Mon Mar 16, 2015 12:59 am

GL1zdA wrote:It's hard for a UNIX based system be lightyears ahead of Windows, given that UNIX is basically an implementation of an OS taking ideas from the 60s and Windows is based on ideas from the 70s. At core, both are multiuser (though Windows has slight edge with its RDP), multitasking with memory protection, network OSs. Its just shows how irrelevant the differences have became. If you take Tanenbaums book and check how concepts he describes are implemented in moderns OSs, you'll see, that they are doing all the important things (case-insensitive paths are cosmetics) the same way.

you've clearly never worked as an admin :lol:

but even as a normal user simple things like useless errors leaving you with nothing to go on or something as simple as backing up your settings are a nightmare thanks to things like the registry and other brainfarts. somebody right here once said that windows is defective by design and that nails it :P
i'll spare you the 253321879 other "accidents" i witnessed with windows; stuff that leaves nothing else but shaking your head so yes, in terms of usage (and not only that) windows is lightyears behind unix

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Re: an observation

Unread postby smj » Mon Mar 16, 2015 3:10 am

wenp wrote: I'd say OS X is the least Unixy Unix-like system out there. ... no /proc

If /proc is a canonical feature of UNIX, somebody has performed a major piece of retcon on the space-time continuum...
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Re: an observation

Unread postby miod » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:19 am

smj wrote:
wenp wrote: I'd say OS X is the least Unixy Unix-like system out there. ... no /proc

If /proc is a canonical feature of UNIX, somebody has performed a major piece of retcon on the space-time continuum...

Or someone is simply confusing Unix with SVR4. ;)
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Re: an observation

Unread postby guardian452 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:37 am

commodorejohn wrote:
I'm personally kinda bummed that the new macbook, despite having eliminated "all but one" port to rule them all, still has a headphone socket.

That's because you're mentally ill. Failing to discard useful features is not a shortcoming.

Wanted to clarify this bit, another USB socket would have been more useful. If there really was no space for anything else but two ports a headset jack seems like kind of a waste IMO. Besides, they could peddle overpriced BT headphones (meanwhile, my 4-year-old jaybirds "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'"). That, or I plug decent speaker/headphone into a focusrite USB interface.

Besides, it would be more symmetrical, which should appeal to Ive's aesthetic. (maybe, what do I know, I'm no designer artisté) :lol:


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