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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 5:40 am 
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matt, I'm flattered that you'd reply to my remarks. And it's cool that you'd attempt a coherent response. Next time though, you should actually read what you are responding to first ...

mattst88 wrote:
What the heck were they thinking when they started depending on technologies that our beloved IRIX doesn't have?! Don't they know how many IRIX users they have? I can't believe they'd alienate such a huge and important user-base like that. And, doing all of that over the objections of the many IRIX developers who begged and pleaded with them to just not use such a new (from the year 2000!) technology like Xrender.

Willie Mays used to play left field but at least he could catch the ball. What I wrote was "I use Firefox on Windows at least a half hour a day and it's shit." Just last Monday, when I was in a rush to find where I was going, four tabs open, Fireflop 11 on WINDOWS and the cpu goes to 98%, entire application freezes, no scroll bar movement, no tab changing, no tab closing, no response of any sort, just a pegged cpu and memory skyrocketing.

Let me say this one more time with emphases : ON WINDOWS, VERSION ELEVEN, LATEST GREATEST, the fucking useless piece of shit hangs solid. Ten goddamned years of high-quality volunteeer coding, a thousand eyes, a thousand hands, we've got Xrender and GTK2 and XULrunner and extensions and 800 million bucks from Google and the things is a piece of shit. It does this frequently.

The morons who wrote this turd should be St Valentinesed.

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I don't know if you know what XRender is, so to make sure everyone's on the same page: it's a hardware-accelerated 2D rendering API for X dating back to XFree86 4.0.1 in 2000. So, by using it, they accelerate the rendering of webpages, specifically anti-aliased text.

Yes, I agree. It's very important that anti-aliased text is clear and bright and that the nice clock hands can be oh so pretty - while the fucking useless piece of shit is frozen solid, ignoring user input, gobbling memory and cpu, and waiting to be killed with the good ol' Win 3.1 three finger salute.Very important, I agree with you totally.


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Why do you think anyone upstream would care about IRIX? The people working on Firefox (and all other Free Software for that matter) are doing it because (1) they're paid by their employer to do so (ie, paid to care), or (2) because they've got a personal desire to do so.

You are missing the point. If they had improved Fireflop in any way since the days of 2.02.000002, then maybe they'd have an excuse.

... but they haven't. It's shit and apparently it will always be shit. So why did they bother to screw the people who used to use it on Irix and other less popular platforms ? Ego ? The same idiotic puffed-up "We're winning in the marketplace !" braindead swill they were peddling back when it was Netcrap ? They haven't had a decent product since Netscape 3. Microsoft crushed them like a bug because they are idiots and losers with a shit product. What's even worse is that the Netcrap losers couldn't even handle it when a group within the Beast came out with a worthwhile program. Noooo, their little egos couldn't take that so they had to destroy the Phoenix project so they could "win in the marketplace."

The Mozilla Foundation smells, worse than a dead skunk in the middle of the road, stinkin' to high high heaven.


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That's only marginally more ridiculous than the current attitude that no one who works on Firefox knows what the fuck he's doing and if they'd only just listen to you (and perhaps support IRIX!) then everything would be right with the world.

If they had one-tenth of a brain they could perhaps do something about the underlying problems. The basic structure of their program is all wrong. I don't know doodly but I do know Rule Number One :

In any nontrivial userland program you do not repeat not allow any operation to interrupt the message queue for more than one-tenth of a second. You have a primary message queue which listens to the god-damned user all the time and subsidiary to that queue you spin off threads or processes to do work. In a multi-tasking operating system you do not allow your dumbfuck program to lock the user out of control just because your dumbfuck programmers are too busy playing with pretty little clock hands and other jackoff games to structure the program correctly. Here's a hint, Windows-boyz : this ain't DOS 3.3 no more.

Yes. They are morons. They may be masters of the marketplace, they can play with their dicks until the cows come home, they can give each other tongue kisses all day and all night telling themselves how wonderful they are, but the product is shit stuffed into a velvet condom. End of story.

Quote:
Maybe you don't care about sites like Gmail or any other Google site, or any of the benefits a JavaScript JIT compiler provides.

You're absolutely right, I don't. You may kowtow to the mighty and benevolent Google Gods if you like. Personally, I'm pretty sick and tired of their useless advertising campaigns and their beloved javascript spying. With javascript turned OFF my life is 90% better.


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I think your view of how free software is developed is totally warped. You shouldn't expect someone to maintain something ...

Then they should shut their everflapping gobstoppers about "the commuuuuunity" and what altruists they and "Opeeeen Sooooores" are. They're in it for the money, just like Judas Iscariot. At least Larry has always been honest about being a money-grubbing ethics-free jerk ...

There are some very cool people involved with open source. None of them work at Mozilla.

Quote:
I wouldn't normally bother to respond to things like this, but I've noticed that this how dare they not support IRIX?! attitude around here way too much. I don't know if it comes from a weird sense of entitlement or from a lack of understanding of how the free software you're lucky to have is developed.


It's called, "you go home with the one what brung ya."

There are nice people and skilled ones working with open source. Bob Friesenhahn is cool, the xpdf guy is cool, there are many.

There are also a lot of pure shitheads who should be writing Windows apps. We were better off when they were writing Windows apps. They have no talent and no skill and I wish they would all just drop dead.

Linus, Stallman, Open Sores, they were all the underdogs in the early nineties. When they were the underdogs it was all "standards ! Software should adhere to standards so it can be ported fairly easily to any platform ! Linux runs on almost all hardware ! We aren't fat and bloated like that Windows shit, we're lean and mean and standards-compliant and community-driven and you can run Linux apps on an old 486 with only two megs of RAM ! We're the PEOPLE'S operating system, not like them proprietary corporates who don't care about their users !"

So we supported them. And pushed them. And built up their "market share." I was pushing all my friends onto Phoenix 0.4 when it was more than a little rough. We made them respectable. Made them what they are today.

Now it's "Buy a bigger hard drive, they're cheap. And a faster cpu. And you will use our compiler or you can forget it. If you don't like it, go fuck yourself. "

There's a certain feeling of betrayal here, ya know ? It's hard to sleep comfortably with that knife in the back. I hope they enjoy their thirty pieces of silver ... but if they hang themselves some of us will have a party. If they can figure out how to do it correctly, anyway.


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 6:21 am 
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It's clear that there's no discussing this with you. You're simply crazy.

I do have to point out that Willie Mays played only 10 innings of left field in his entire career. He played center.

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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:30 am 
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oh yes, the complete product is shit, because of your pebkac, and you have the right to express this quite explicitly


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Unread postPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2012 7:08 pm 
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hamei wrote:
just like Judas Iscariot

hehe first comes to mind is Lebron James ;)

hamei wrote:
good ol' Win 3.1 three finger salute

:lol: :lol: :lol: ;)

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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:41 am 
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oreissig wrote:
oh yes, the complete product is shit, because of your pebkac, and you have the right to express this quite explicitly

Absolutely. I mean, what the hell was I thinking ? I took the browser out onto the Internet ! It's dangerous out there ! And the ChinaRail website ... jesus, was that stoopid or what ? Someone coulda been killed ! No one with any sense would try get a train schedule and map of the hongqiao station ! What the hell do they think this is, the Information Superhighway ? With four whole tabs open I'm amazed we only got 98% cpu usage and a frozen application. We coulda had an explosion or something. Talk about brainless users, that's me for sure.

mattst88 wrote:
It's clear that there's no discussing this with you. You're simply crazy.

I'm begining to agree with you. After fifteen years of dealing with Netcrap, wtf am I doing thinking it's ever going to work right ? I despise this quote and doubt that Einstein ever said it but there's some truth to the statement that insanity is trying the same thing over and over but expecting a different result. Netscape has been shit for a decade and a half. Why the hell would it change now ?

Quote:
I do have to point out that Willie Mays played only 10 innings of left field in his entire career. He played center.

Really ? You're sure that's ten innings in his entire career ? Cool, 'cuz the only time I ever got to see him play was in Seals Stadium and he was in left field. Or he was playing so far over in left that he may as well have been playing left. Maybe someone was hurt that day or something ... he got on base twice and struck out once and we lost. I'm still sad about it but not as sad as how we lost to the hated Yankees a few years later. We're at bat, bottom of the ninth, score tied, bases loaded, last game of the series, all we need was one crummy hit. In fact I'm crying right now, thinking about it :(


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Unread postPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 9:55 am 
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hamei wrote:
With four whole tabs open I'm amazed we only got 98% cpu usage and a frozen application.

you can keep bringing this one point up over and over again, but noone I know of has severe issues with interface responsiveness in Firefox.
I can think of several reasons ranging from "you are runing firefox on a Intel 386 or MIPS R2000" over "you are running over 9000 extensions" to "you are running some crappy extension that slows down the browser", each of which is out of mozillas control. as long as you don't give some clear evidence, that the problem is not a pebkac, you can just stop annoying people with your disruptive flaming


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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:57 am 
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can only second that...i use firefox since the early beginning (linux/windows) until now and never had any problems with it. i would say its my favorite browser out there.

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Unread postPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:13 am 
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I use variated flavors of Linux all my time, and a few months ago switched to Google Chrome because it was so much faster that I could not lie to myself anymore to save FireFox... of course your mileage can vary, but (at least for my own experience here) it is faster Chrome with ten extensions installed and active than a clean and fresh install for a FireFox install from same period.

I want to put very clear here that I'm just talking from my own experience, and I don't want to hurt the feelings from anyone else. In fact I would be extremely happy if I can run FireFox 10 with IRIX, so, don't get me wrong.

But I could not say that FireFox is speedy when you run Linux, because Chrome raises a whole new bar in performance and memory handling. I just simply got tired to have to close and re-open FireFox over and over because it claimed about 675MB from my RAM after less than an hour of opened. Anyone else had this problem with recent releases of FireFox Linux, over several machines, or is it just me?

Again, this is not to hurt anyone else, just my own experience... and maybe I'm just doing anything wrong here.

All the best,
Diego

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 2:42 am 
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I think you don't need to hide behind your opinion, it's a well acknowledged fact (through almost all benchmarks) that Chrome is faster than Firefox. But page rendering being slower is a different story than a complete UI lockup.

Regarding RAM: I don't have a comparison with other Browsers, but it's true, that Firefox is one of the more demanding programs on RAM. My Firefox currently needs about 830mb, but I have 5 rows of tabs open and actually I don't really care. I have a modest 4GB, and there is no other program in need for any significant amount of RAM (except an occasional 7Zip).


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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:04 am 
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oreissig wrote:
I think you don't need to hide behind your opinion, it's a well acknowledged fact (through almost all benchmarks) that Chrome is faster than Firefox.


Okay, it is fine then.

oreissig wrote:
But page rendering being slower is a different story than a complete UI lockup.


I need to reckon I've faced (a lot) more than one complete UI lockup, and in my humble opinion, it would be related to the rather extreme RAM demands from FireFox while I'm using a few other RAM intensive programs. Anyway, my experience says, that once it is into a solid lockup even if you start to close other apps it will not respond. I had many UI lockups with as less as 10% of processing power being used... so, it is clear that the problem is not related with a lack of capabilities there.

So, yes... in my humble opinion, the UI has some callback troubles inside, but I could not tell exactly what kind of problems since never browsed a single line of FireFox's sourcecode.

Also, I've used FF along many years, pretty much since the official launch after Netscape, and -even if you think again I'm hidding me behind the my opinion concept- I think it is a superb app, even if to my opinion, performance is actually pretty poor.

oreissig wrote:
Regarding RAM: I don't have a comparison with other Browsers, but it's true, that Firefox is one of the more demanding programs on RAM. My Firefox currently needs about 830mb, but I have 5 rows of tabs open and actually I don't really care. I have a modest 4GB, and there is no other program in need for any significant amount of RAM (except an occasional 7Zip).


The problem for me is not: "How many resources it uses?" but "What are my resources being used for?"

Because I can stand for a browser demanding a few hundreed MB frm my RAM, but only if it works for me. I'm not exagerating when I say that Chrome with ten installed and active extensions runs a lot faster (and that includes, with a lot more responsive UI) than a clean vanilla FireFox install... and even if sometimes Chrome eats almost the same amount of RAM, I never feel that the UI is lacking responsiveness for me.

But again, please be sure to notice that I'm saying "for me" all the time. So, your mileage can vary. But believe me, I run three different Linux flavors, and removed FireFox in favor of Chrome in all of them.

With IRIX it is an entirely different thing, because I'm used to run FireFox, Netscape, or Dillo, since a lot of years ago, and there is no choice if you want compatibility with latest standards. Then I use FireFox without expecting light-fast browsing but just wanting some features that I can't find using Dillo, and I can tolerate the slow behavior because my IRIX box is not the more powerful or recent one... and even then, I think that FireFox IRIX runs a lot better than FireFox Linux if you compare the amount of resources that each one uses, and how well are being used. I think (at least for me) what you call UI lockup is a lot more frequent using FF Linux than using FF IRIX... even for MIPS/IRIX systems as old like mine... then, nobody gets hurt.

And no matter what, I'll be more than happy if we can run some latest generation browser for IRIX, so...
...Peace in the world!

All the best,
Diego

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:52 am 
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I use safari unless I'm on my video games PC, then I'll use IE.

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Unread postPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:09 pm 
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guardian452 wrote:
I use safari unless I'm on my video games PC, then I'll use IE.


I've heard very good things from it, but never tried. You know, you can't find any release for IRIX or Linux, so... :(

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:21 am 
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Coming back to the original subject of the port, is this a dead-end or will more dev time (i.e. money) help?

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:40 am 
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Unless NCommander had any progress in the background, nothing has happened since he ran into linking issue...
I had to shut down the O200, and moved him to my O2, then 64 vs 32 bit issues started to surface, and due to no activity I have shut down the O2 as well.
I might be able to move him to a Fuel in Poland - but this one first needs some work to bring it back to life (and then dir_marillion doesn't get his ATX->Fuel converter cable)...

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Unread postPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:09 pm 
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do you know where Ncommander is based?

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