Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Shiunbird » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:00 pm

vishnu wrote:As far as SGI is concerned, we at nekochan are naught but a merry little ban of renegades, hence Irix knows nothing of nekoware.


That's curious. Has SGI made any comments in regards to this community?

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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby robespierre » Tue Nov 01, 2016 7:42 pm

SGI, the creator of IRIX, doesn't exist. The company "Silicon Graphics International" which is being acquired by HPE, has never sold or supported IRIX and probably doesn't know what it is.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Shiunbird » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:46 am

Not even in the past?

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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby vishnu » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:08 am

Shiunbird wrote:Not even in the past?

It's a long and convoluted story but my guess would be that there are probably still a few people left at the former SGI who remember IRIX... :roll:
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Dodoid » Wed Nov 02, 2016 11:09 am

vishnu wrote:still remember IRIX

Wouldn't be so sure, just a few days ago they tweeted about how the Onyx was used for Nintendo 64 development and commented on it's purple accents... followed by a PDF about the Onyx300 and 3000, which are blue and were never used for N64 development. I posted this Imgur album about it to Reddit.

Shiunbird wrote:Not even in the past?


History time, I like long convoluted stories.

In the early 2000s, prices for used SGI systems, especially Indys, were for the first time cheap enough for hobbyists to buy. The community began to pick up speed around 2003, and in 2004 WIRED even wrote an article about the growing number of hobbyists. SGI at the time didn't like hobbyist sites, and as the article puts it "tolerated them at best". They certainly never would have integrated Nekoware support into IRIX (though there are, as you have seen, 3rd party installer tools). SGI, as we know it (the manufacturer of machines like the Octane, Tezro, Indy, Onyx, and so on) went bankrupt in 2009 due to a mixture of things like improving 3D graphics in cheap PCs, Linux, lack of new IRIX software, and, if ex-employees are to be believed, management that didn't understand the technology. A lot of people will debate about these, but those are some of the reasons people usually list. This was shortly after they discontinued IRIX in 2006. They were purchased by Rackable Systems, which was a reasonably successful but still small server manufacturer. Seeing that the SGI brand had a good reputation even though recent SGI machines like the Prism and Virtu had been commercially unsuccessful, Rackable rebranded themselves to SGI. There are rumors that Rackable was still producing SGI Fuels in 2011, and theoretically still could be though it is unlikely. Around that time is also when support for most SGI products ended. Initially, they tried to capitalize off of the SGI brand with products like the Octane 3, which was an x86 cluster nothing like the Octane 1 or 2, and the Origin 400, which was an x86 blade server, but these names were confusing and they eventually opted to drop the old product names and just use the SGI brand for completely new machines. They released a few supercomputer and storage cluster devices which use x86 processors, and just yesterday announced that once again they had been purchased, this time by HP Enterprise (though the purchase was known earlier, it was completed yesterday). Chances are the SGI brand will soon be discontinued once and for all.

Basically, when SGI was SGI, they never acknowledged Nekochan or any hobbyist community's existence (apart from at one point trying and failing to force hobbyist sites to run a disclaimer saying they were not affiliated with SGI), and once they went bankrupt, everything hobbyists cared about was disregarded and left for us to figure out for ourselves.

So no, not in the past, not today. Nekoware is unofficial and will never be adopted as an official product.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Elf » Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:03 pm

This is not too much different than other third party software collections for commercial operating systems though (e.g. OpenCSW or unixpackages for Solaris, HPUX ports). Even FreeBSD distinguishes strongly between the base OS and ports, although the ability to use ports or pkg does come with the base OS install.

I think the convention of using a combined set of repositories for the base OS, vendor products, and user installed software is more of a Linux thing. It can be convenient, but also messy.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby jan-jaap » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:28 pm

Dodoid wrote:They certainly never would have integrated Nekoware support into IRIX (though there are, as you have seen, 3rd party installer tools).

That would have been silly. Back then SGI had it's own SGI Freeware, which was updated quarterly. The people who ran the Freeware effort were happy with user input.

Freeware was discontinued end of 2003.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby josehill » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:15 pm

Shiunbird wrote:
vishnu wrote:As far as SGI is concerned, we at nekochan are naught but a merry little ban of renegades, hence Irix knows nothing of nekoware.


That's curious. Has SGI made any comments in regards to this community?


Sure. Among other things, they linked to Nekochan on a few of their official webpages on a few occasions, and they included http://freeware.nekochan.net on their list of official freeware mirrors. SGI staff sometimes posted here, too.

At the same time, SGI made it clear that they were very protective of their trademarks and copyrights, which some folks interpreted as being hostile to the community. I don't hold the latter against SGI, as their policies, while sometimes perhaps overly strict, generally were within the bounds of what organizations are expected to do to maintain defensible rights over intellectual property.

Regarding things like "sources.list" and a range of available repositories, it's worth putting IRIX in historical context. IRIX 6.5 came out right around the time that debian's APT system was first released. At the time, if you were running a commercial UNIX system, probably almost all of the software you ran was commercial software, so no need for a repository. If you did run open source software, chances are it was limited to httpd (eventually Apache), Perl, the gcc toolchain, and maybe Emacs.

You also probably built those from source, rather than installing them from binaries. Since you didn't use a gazillion open source tools with a gazillion dependencies you just went out to the project ftp sites for the individual tools you wanted and manually downloaded what you needed. Also, many institutional networks weren't up to the task of downloading gigabytes -- or even hundreds of megabytes -- of data at a time. If you tried to download a full BSD distribution, including a ports repository, you might even expect a visit from an unhappy network administrator. In fact, if you wanted to experiment with Linux, BSD, or a large set of GNU tools, you may have been more likely to order a shrink-wrapped CD-ROM or to go to the bookstore and buy a book with a bundled CD-ROM then you were to download everything from the 'Net! That actually was practical because the rate of version change was significantly slower than it is today, and the security environment wasn't quite as ruthless as it is today. Sorry to sound like an old man, but it was a simpler time.

Anyway, because of all of the above, there really wasn't any pressure on the commercial UNIX providers to support third party repositories. In fact, for awhile, I think SGI was the only company that tried to maintain an open source binary repository (freeware.sgi.com) and offer open source CD-ROMS with their OS distributions. (I think SUN probably was next, around Solaris 8, IIRC.) As far as community supported repositories, most commercial UNIX platforms would've been lucky to have just ONE reasonably complete and well maintained external repository. SGI had/has Nekochan (and a couple of smaller repositories managed by individuals), SUN had/has Sunfreeware/Unixpackages, and the others generally had much less well maintained bits and pieces. The market was putting much more pressure on the commercial UNIX providers to boost large system scalability and performance (i.e. hardware and kernel) than it was to support open source tools. Unfortunately, by the time open source tools gathered widespread traction beyond academia and the Linux package/repository management tools really matured, the commercial UNIX market was changing quickly, and none of the companies saw much value in building external repository support.

SGI's inst/swmgr system was pretty advanced for its time. Unfortunately, that time is frozen around 1998.

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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby uunix » Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:29 pm

I also recall skunkworks for SCO.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Intuition » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:25 pm

I added the lines to the script tonight. It kicks out this when listing.

Code: Select all

Intuition 22# nekopkg.sh list
Available packages:
         <body
         <center><h1>301
         <head><title>301
         <hr><center>nginx/1.11.0</center>
         <html>
         </body>
         </html>


Does this look right? Seems like some formatting issue?
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Dodoid » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:50 am

Intuition wrote:I added the lines to the script tonight. It kicks out this when listing.

Code: Select all

Intuition 22# nekopkg.sh list
Available packages:
         <body
         <center><h1>301
         <head><title>301
         <hr><center>nginx/1.11.0</center>
         <html>
         </body>
         </html>


Does this look right? Seems like some formatting issue?


It's spitting our random HTML from the page. Maybe it will work for you, but I couldn't make nekopkg work and switched to the very similar nekodeps.pl
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby jpstewart » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:00 pm

Intuition wrote:I added the lines to the script tonight. It kicks out this when listing.

Code: Select all

Intuition 22# nekopkg.sh list
Available packages:
         <body
         <center><h1>301
         <head><title>301
         <hr><center>nginx/1.11.0</center>
         <html>
         </body>
         </html>


Does this look right? Seems like some formatting issue?

"301" is the HTTP response code for "moved permanently". If you used the mirror that I suggested earlier in the thread, it's moved to http://nekoware.bufferoverflow.xyz/index.php?path=current. (In which case: I'm sorry that I provided bad advice. :oops: ) Apparently the script doesn't handle redirects, and the list of Nekoware mirrors is out of date.
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Re: Using Nekochan repository and other misc inquiry.

Unread postby Intuition » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:22 pm

Using the link you provided I can use a browser and download things but I can't seem to setup a repository... it gives me an error when I place some of them into the nekopkg.sh file

Code: Select all

Intuition 12# nekopkg.sh -list
if: Malformed file inquiry.


I tried nekodeps.pl but every command I try like "nekodeps.pl --config" gives me a permission denied message which is strange because I am using the root account profile to try all of this.
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