What ever happened with that Dutch guy with the drugs?

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lisp
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Unread postby lisp » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:06 pm

Glock wrote:In one episode, he sampled some 'mushrooms' - the 'softdrug' that is harder and more dangerous than it seems. Ofcourse, a videocrew documented his trip pretty well. I know I'll NEVER touch that shit - I am a gun owner and taking psychotropic hallucinogetic (correct word?) mind/reality altering substances is NOT a smart thing to do - especially when the effects can be very unpredictable and could go on for hours or days...


Mushrooms are not hard, and not really dangerous - you won't get addicted, and you'll find it very hard to physiologically overdose. The only "dangerous" thing about them is that they're mind expanding. The only problem is, that until you've had your mind expanded, there's no way you can even comprehend what the phrase truly means.

They can have a negative effect on people with certain mental attributes though. Somone who obsesses over guns probably falls into that group.

One thing that is important is that no one should take drugs until they understand the full consequences of the action.
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Unread postby CDG » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:51 pm

I give you credit for structuring an argument that is difficult to dislodge.

I will say that I would much rather never have my mind "expanded" in that way.

Having lost several friends to drug addiction, I susepect what you say about expanding the mind to be crap, but since I con't prove it having never tried mushrooms, I don't really have much of a case now do I?

I will argue against what you say of mushrooms not being dangerous in the only way that I think anyone can: That often times these kinds of drugs, like mushrooms, extasy, marijuana, and even alcohol and nicotine to a somewhat lesser extent are often gateway drugs, that lead down the path of bigger highs and worse addictions that are difficult to break, and often lead to problems ranging from medical expenses to rising crime rates.

Whether or not you can become chemically dependent on mushrooms or any other psychoactive drugs is irrelavent. There are psychological addictions. It IS possible to be addicted to LSD, Marijuana, etc. without being chemically dependent as such cases as Morphine, cocaine etc.

Now, before stepping into a trap of supportingi a freedom to own a firearm, whie opposing a freedom to use drugs, I will clarify:

a drug known to seriously effect your ability to reason is not the same as owning a firearm. Whie carrying a firearm may alter your reaction to a violent situation, it will not directly alter your judgement. When you drive with a firearm, it is very unlikely that you are more dangerous of a driver. OK so there have been a few road rage cases involving firearms. Putting that aside, in my eyes having a firearm and not needing it is a whole lot better then not having a firearm and needing it.

On the other hand having this tremendously expanded mind or not seems to me to be inconsequential over the course of a lifetime.

I would ask this of lisp: Presuming temporarily that you have experimented with psychoactive drugs at some point in time, where has this experience(s) come into play in your daily life?

I don't wish to be a smart ass, or so arrogant as to step on the beliefs of others, but I don't see the argument for allowing illegal drugs as being a good one.

Perhaps though lisp, you may have something in that most gun owners don't have the right mindset for experimentation with mushrooms. Many of "us" if you will allow me to assign group membership, have a more rugged self-reliant outlook on things. Prepare for the worst all the time. Never let your guard down. *shrug* Doesn't make either groupe right or wrong. More a matter of perspective I suppose.

Anyway I sincerely don't want an argument to get personal. I try to tell things as I see them without stepping on anyone's feelings, but while effectively getting my point accross. If you have a problem with something I said, please just say so rather then launching a searing attack. I'm not deliberately trying to hurt anyone here. :) That's why this place is called a "forum", as it is supposed to be a place where people can openly discuss ideas. :)

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Unread postby Glock » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:10 pm

nekonoko wrote:
Glock wrote:As for the 'no-politics' rule, I find it a hazy rule. This is the 'everything Else' thread, no?


No politics means just that. Period. If you don't like the rules here, then please post someplace else. This is an SGI enthusiast forum that just happens to have a catch all forum for occasional off topic posts (every forum is bound to have a few). Political discussion just leads to bickering and resentment and I don't need that crap on here.


It wasn't my intention to attack you or the forum rules, nekonoko, I apoligize for choosing my words badly (reading it myself afterwards, it sounded somewhat agressive)...

I'm just not sure of what exactly falls under 'politics'. There seem to be a lot of topics that insite bickering and resentment, for example Irix vx Linux, Mac vs PC, MS vs everyone else,... Still, we all have to find middle ground and healthy debate is a means to this end... And AFAIK, this forum is the most friendly and warm place I've seen on the net.

But I'll try to minimize government bashing (even if it is my own) to a minimum :)

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Unread postby Glock » Sun Apr 30, 2006 5:27 pm

lisp wrote:They can have a negative effect on people with certain mental attributes though. Somone who obsesses over guns probably falls into that group.

One thing that is important is that no one should take drugs until they understand the full consequences of the action.


That was my point. I choose not to sample mushrooms, because of my responsibility - as a gun owner - to stay in control of my actions. The actions of a subject on a bad trip with a gun most likely will have greater consequences, than those of an unarmed subject. I took responsibility.

And I think anyone who is obsessed about something is part of that 'group'. A gun owner is not automatically obsessed by definition. I'm not. Well, maybe about collecting cool SGI boxen...

I guess in the end, we're all obsessed about something: personal image, looks & style, music, obtaining perfection in the crafts we perform,...

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Unread postby CDG » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:35 pm

Glock wrote:
And I think anyone who is obsessed about something is part of that 'group'. A gun owner is not automatically obsessed by definition. I'm not. Well, maybe about collecting cool SGI boxen...

I guess in the end, we're all obsessed about something: personal image, looks & style, music, obtaining perfection in the crafts we perform,...


Ah come on we all know you're a gun nut at heart. :lol:

(a little playful banter).

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Unread postby lisp » Mon May 01, 2006 8:41 am

CDG wrote:I give you credit for structuring an argument that is difficult to dislodge.

I will say that I would much rather never have my mind "expanded" in that way.

Having lost several friends to drug addiction, I susepect what you say about expanding the mind to be crap, but since I con't prove it having never tried mushrooms, I don't really have much of a case now do I?

I will argue against what you say of mushrooms not being dangerous in the only way that I think anyone can: That often times these kinds of drugs, like mushrooms, extasy, marijuana, and even alcohol and nicotine to a somewhat lesser extent are often gateway drugs, that lead down the path of bigger highs and worse addictions that are difficult to break, and often lead to problems ranging from medical expenses to rising crime rates.


They could, in certain people, act as a gateway, but in the case of mushrooms, tolerance builds fast. If you take them too often, they simply won't work. They also don't make you "high" - the experience is better described as "sideways". For most people, the experience is too intense to want to do it often.

On the other hand having this tremendously expanded mind or not seems to me to be inconsequential over the course of a lifetime.

I would ask this of lisp: Presuming temporarily that you have experimented with psychoactive drugs at some point in time, where has this experience(s) come into play in your daily life?


On the contrary, my experimentation has utterly changed my existence, and make guns, politics, religion, life, the universe, and everything seem utterly irrelevant and pointless.

Disclaimer: for my first trip I took what would normally be considered strong dose. However, I later discovered I'm about ten times more sensitive than most people.

As such, after a little bit of giggling and watching the pretty colours, time, space and probability broke down. I didn't see god - I was god. I was every speck of matter and energy at all times and space, in every possible configuration, the infinite a mere mote in my eye. All emotion and memory stripped away. Reality a simple delusion of my fevered imagining. The idea of human beings, hate, religion seeming a cruel, cruel joke.

I never quite came back down again. I can't see black any more - I see an infinitely recursive play of colour, just on the edge of perception. It's as though my being was shattered into a billion pieces that are now simply a loosely cohesive cloud of being. I can only live from day to day by pretending my life is real and playing along with it.

I don't wish to be a smart ass, or so arrogant as to step on the beliefs of others, but I don't see the argument for allowing illegal drugs as being a good one.


It probably wasn't a good thing. Occasionally I regret it. But it was my decision, and I have to live with the consequences of my actions. Note that mushrooms were technically legal in the UK when I did this. I actually agree that certain drugs should be controlled, but that doesn't mean neccessarily making them illegal. It's interesting to note that before the USA threw it's weight around, drugs were commonly treated as an illness, rather than a crime. This was actually far more effective - in this regard, the War On Drugs has caused far more damage than it's prevented.

Perhaps though lisp, you may have something in that most gun owners don't have the right mindset for experimentation with mushrooms. Many of "us" if you will allow me to assign group membership, have a more rugged self-reliant outlook on things. Prepare for the worst all the time. Never let your guard down. *shrug* Doesn't make either groupe right or wrong. More a matter of perspective I suppose.


It's not that your self reliance makes you too good to take drugs. It's that your self reliance will prevent you from relaxing into the trip, and will therefore pretty much ensure you endure 8 hours of pure hell you can't wake up from that makes your worst nightmare seem like a walk in the park. A bad trip isn't just a bit scary - it can drive you absolutely insane.[/i]
Last edited by lisp on Mon May 01, 2006 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby lisp » Mon May 01, 2006 8:43 am

Glock wrote:That was my point. I choose not to sample mushrooms, because of my responsibility - as a gun owner - to stay in control of my actions. The actions of a subject on a bad trip with a gun most likely will have greater consequences, than those of an unarmed subject. I took responsibility.


And it is that responsibility that would give you a bad trip.
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Unread postby CDG » Mon May 01, 2006 1:01 pm

Allright lisp, I am glad there are no hard feelings. I'm affraid I totally misinterpreted your post. Having been on some pretty lousy forums in the past, I am used to people trying to set "traps" to try to make your posts seem contradictory. I would have thought sure I would have gotten a followup from you like "well you support guns but not drugs" etc etc. Well no matter, my suspicions were clearly misplaced.

So my apologies. You seem like a nice enough fellow. :)

I still don't want to take any drug (or mushroom) of any kind, but I don't mind much what other people do so long as they are reasonably mature about it.

As for the war on drugs, it does cause a lot of harm and relatively little good. I would say using mushrooms, LSD, Marijuana are in a totally different league from using Meth, Cocaine, or Heroin though. I have little or no sympathy to those who choose to use such drugs.

But of course I suppose there are many different ways of looking at these things. What I find more humorous then anything is where I used to live in Pennsylvania. While hardcore drugs are associated with low class trash, there are a LOT of rich kids that blow their money up their nose with unbelievable cocaine habbits.

Last thing lisp, in slight correction of what you last said, I never said I was too good to take drugs. I just said I don't want to, and that in itself is due to my wanting to remain in total control of myself; totally self reliant (as much as one can be I suppose anyway).

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Unread postby VenomousPinecone » Tue May 02, 2006 5:03 pm

Heh, I knew a guy that wound up perma-baked from a bad cid trip. Now he lives at an assissted living facility, shitting his diapers on regular occasion.

As for me? I think I want to avoid the kind of mind boggling and ever so expensive mind-fuck that can only be achieved with good psychedelic drugs. Dont get me wrong, I like drugs, hell I love drugs. Without weed and codeine my highschool days would have been far less enjoyable (hey... I had diagnosed chronic migraines, dont look at me funny :)

Oh, yeah, I still smoke and drink on a weekly basis and I find that it makes me no less responsible of a person. I own 4 firearms (Colt 1911, Glock 21, H&K G3 and a Marlin 30-30 Lever Action). I am not a gun nut, but as Marcus Aurelius would say; 'good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people'.

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Unread postby CDG » Tue May 02, 2006 6:36 pm

VenomousPinecone wrote:Heh, I knew a guy that wound up perma-baked from a bad cid trip. Now he lives at an assissted living facility, shitting his diapers on regular occasion.

As for me? I think I want to avoid the kind of mind boggling and ever so expensive mind-fuck that can only be achieved with good psychedelic drugs. Dont get me wrong, I like drugs, hell I love drugs. Without weed and codeine my highschool days would have been far less enjoyable (hey... I had diagnosed chronic migraines, dont look at me funny :)

Oh, yeah, I still smoke and drink on a weekly basis and I find that it makes me no less responsible of a person. I own 4 firearms (Colt 1911, Glock 21, H&K G3 and a Marlin 30-30 Lever Action). I am not a gun nut, but as Marcus Aurelius would say; 'good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people'.


Marlin .30-30? My 17th birthday present was a Marlin 336C. :) Lovely gun to shoot, gives you a lot for the money.

Drugs/alcohol do not in themselves make you less responsible. However, they do affect your judgement. The only thing that bothers me is people who drink while shooting. That just isn't smart (or responsible).

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Unread postby Dubhthach » Wed May 03, 2006 2:18 am

Regarding Gun Law, here in Ireland handguns are illegal unless ye are a armed Garda (cop -- most gardai are unarmed). I believe only legal firearms are shotguns and .22 rifles and ye need a license. Likewise before they give you a license they do a full background check on you, to make sure ye got no connections to illegal organisations.

Still there is a rising level of gun crime here from firearms brought in illegaly as part of the drug trade.
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Unread postby Glock » Wed May 03, 2006 4:02 am

I wasn't saying ALL drugs make you irresponsible (or induce strange behaviour)... Just the psychedelic ones, which warp space & time, as lisp says it :)

A world without weed would be a boring world - geddit?

That said VenomousPinecone, I don't know about the marihuana quality in the USA, but if you believe the news (there's no truth in the news and there's no news in the truth...) the THC factor of European weed is WAY up. Don't remember the exact numbers (was smokin' it at the time), but it is approaching the potency of regular hard drugs.

Ofcourse, what exactly is a hard drug. Alcohol is one I believe, so now does it take two Heineken to rinse my troath after a good puff???

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Unread postby VenomousPinecone » Wed May 03, 2006 8:52 am

Dubhthach wrote:Still there is a rising level of gun crime here from firearms brought in illegaly as part of the drug trade.


See, thats the sad thing about laws... they dont stop crime, they just make more criminals.

Glock wrote:the THC factor of European weed is WAY up. Don't remember the exact numbers (was smokin' it at the time), but it is approaching the potency of regular hard drugs.

Ofcourse, what exactly is a hard drug. Alcohol is one I believe, so now does it take two Heineken to rinse my troath after a good puff???


I think what they mean by calling it a hard drug is that it takes much fewer hits to be effective. As far as US quality is concerned the average crap is usually just that, but if you know what your looking for and want to pay extra you can get some of the Real Thing tm. As usual, in the free market you get what you pay for.

Two Heines? how about a shot of Vodka or Rum. :D

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Unread postby lisp » Wed May 03, 2006 11:55 am

VenomousPinecone wrote:As for me? I think I want to avoid the kind of mind boggling and ever so expensive mind-fuck that can only be achieved with good psychedelic drugs.


Things must be different where you are. Illegal drugs are by far the cheapest way of getting mashed here. Far, far chaper than alcohol.
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Unread postby VenomousPinecone » Wed May 03, 2006 12:23 pm

lisp wrote:Things must be different where you are. Illegal drugs are by far the cheapest way of getting mashed here. Far, far chaper than alcohol.


Hell yeah it must be different, its Vegas baby! alcohol is the cheapest thing to get a hold of in this town, followed closely by STD's :twisted:

Speaking of that, im off to the bar for lunch.


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