What ever happened with that Dutch guy with the drugs?

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CDG
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What ever happened with that Dutch guy with the drugs?

Unread postby CDG » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:25 pm

OK, very odd title. I'm just curious: a few months back there was a back-page article in the newspaper about some reporter in the Netherlands who was going to take drugs on TV or something like that. He was going to use one of the hard-core drugs like heroine or something. The memory is a little hazy on the specifics, and why it was something of a controversy, but does anyone living over there know anything about this? I think it was in the Netherlands but I don't remember. I just happened to remember, and haven't seen any followup on it.

Just curious- I don't want to start a riot in here. :)

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Unread postby Glock » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:01 pm

Are you talking about that show on dutch TV called "Spuiten en slikken" (Spits and swallows - if translated loosely)?

It's a kind of talkshow, each episode about some 'controversial' topic like taking dangerous drugs, prostitution and the like... Part of the show was some dude, that went into a closed room (well not so closed sometimes) on the set, and 'practiced' the curent topic and commented on it afterwards.

In one episode, he sampled some 'mushrooms' - the 'softdrug' that is harder and more dangerous than it seems. Ofcourse, a videocrew documented his trip pretty well. I know I'll NEVER touch that shit - I am a gun owner and taking psychotropic hallucinogetic (correct word?) mind/reality altering substances is NOT a smart thing to do - especially when the effects can be very unpredictable and could go on for hours or days...

Another episode, he dicked some callgirl and described his 'experience' - wet dick & all - to the unsuspecting public. For a moment, I thought the cable guy secretly installed Sent-TV (TM) in my TV-set - I could smell the stink for hours... At least the dude from the show spared us the sloppy seconds - or he ran out of airtime...

Oh, did I mention the episode of him sampling one of those male 'massage' devices - the type you 'put' on? If one payed attention, there where some excellent tips on lubricant application hidden deep in the closing comments!

Then I stopped watching.

I guess in a supercapitalist system, everything is allowed to up the ratings... There's money to be earned there.

I miss the good 'ol times, where one had to actually get his lazy ass up and walk to the local arena to see half-naked men slay each other to death. And voting was free - no 1 euro-per-SMS - just a thumbs up or down...

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Unread postby CDG » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:55 pm

Well, I live in America and don't want to open a can of worms with those across the atlantic from me bay making uneducated comments. :) I will say that I'm always trying to expand my understanding of how Europe works, but sometimes it just ain't easy. I have some friends (from Belgium) who feel the same way about the USA. :D

I thought there was another one that was going to try Heroine though. Don't know if he ever did though.... We could be talking about the same show and the article was wrong (or I read it wrong).

BTW, Glock, what are the firearm ownership laws where you live? I don't want to start any political debate over this, I'm just curious about what the laws are (not the meaning behind them). :)

I'm an avid enthusiast of the shooting sports myself, although I don't get much time to enjoy it anymore. Particularly I enjoyed shooting trap. It's been a while though. I shot a lot of handgun where I used to live in Pennsylvania because the weather was so seldom good enough to spend time at an outdoor range. So I shot quite a bit in an indoor 25 yard pistol range. I'm only 18, so only my rifles are in my name. The handguns remain under the protection of my Dad until I'm 21. Actually my only handgun is a Ruger mkII, that I recieved as my 14th birthday present. It's a lovely gun to shoot with (I have the sharp-looking 50th aniversery edition).

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Unread postby Glock » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:06 pm

Gun laws here in Belgium are strict but fair - at least they used to be. When I started shooting, about 8 years ago, it was like this:

- You had to be over 18 to operate and own a firearm - .22 long rifle if you're 16+.
- Have a clean criminal record (duh).
- Be an active member of a club and signin at least 12 times a year (this is a good rule - it keeps the operator familiar with his/her weapon which increases safety, while it discourages wannabes that just wanna own a gun for street cred).
- You pass a theoretical (law and gun safety) and a practical test (hitting the target and not your foot).
- Above is for handguns and rifles, for military weapons you had to apply for a special permit and be a member of a club where firing such a weapon is allowed.

All in all fair rules that actually HAVE to do with safety and responsible behaviour - like a driving permit.

But now those shit-for-brains politicians (what is it with these bleeding heart liberals thesedays?) agree that civilians should not own firearms and are creating a set of new laws that give new meaning to the word witchhunt. One of them is:

- Every gun owner has to undergo an annual psychiatric evaluation.

Well, I wonder what the criteria will be, to pass the test. Well, maybe the idea is to weed out those with points-of-view that don't match accepted parameters. You know, any capable shrink can bend your words to make you look like a subversive element or such. The average football dad is not interested in firearms anyways...

The medieval witchhunts, the Spanish inquisition, the hunt for commies in the USA back in the days, we've seen it all before. Not to say gun owners will be burned at the stake, but taking away your permits because your views of society and/or the government differ from those expressed by the braindead mass, is a reality with a tool like this.

And ofcourse, the general mindless public doesn't mind this new law, because they just LOVE new laws that take away another of our freedoms and/or rights, in return for some FALSE sense of security.

What Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom forget, is that the REAL criminals, doing the bank robbing, thrill killing and tiger kidnapping, use ILLEGAL (read: UNREGISTERED) weapons and therefore CANNOT be taken away by ANY new gun law.

I don't thrust any government that doesn't thrust me owning a firearm. Sounds more like a police state or a dictatorship to me...

As for the 'no-politics' rule, I find it a hazy rule. This is the 'everything Else' thread, no?
What about history? Or ethics? Or culture? Life??? Thesedays, sadly, everything is intertwined with politics. Can we discuss music (a lot of music is about politics)? Or stand-up comedy from the likes of George Carlin or Lewis Black?

Sensorship is a BAD thing. Question everything - it will produce the truth or better questions.

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Unread postby nekonoko » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:14 pm

Glock wrote:As for the 'no-politics' rule, I find it a hazy rule. This is the 'everything Else' thread, no?


No politics means just that. Period. If you don't like the rules here, then please post someplace else. This is an SGI enthusiast forum that just happens to have a catch all forum for occasional off topic posts (every forum is bound to have a few). Political discussion just leads to bickering and resentment and I don't need that crap on here.
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Unread postby kshuff » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:38 pm

Glock wrote:And ofcourse, the general mindless public doesn't mind this new law, because they just LOVE new laws that take away another of our freedoms and/or rights, in return for some FALSE sense of security.

What Joe Sixpack and Soccer Mom forget, is that the REAL criminals, doing the bank robbing, thrill killing and tiger kidnapping, use ILLEGAL (read: UNREGISTERED) weapons and therefore CANNOT be taken away by ANY new gun law.

I don't thrust any government that doesn't thrust me owning a firearm. Sounds more like a police state or a dictatorship to me...


Sounds like the same crap we have here in the states. I guess stupidity is universal.
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Unread postby CDG » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:39 pm

Glock, you sound more like most Americans you would meet then what one would expect from someone who lives in continental europe. Interesting to note the similarities and differences in gun laws, and proposed gun laws in Belgium and here in the USA.

I don't want to sound condescedingt, but most Europeans don't really understand the difference between state and federal powers in the USA (in the same way we probably don't understand a lot of your laws). However, firearms are pretty much a state issue at the present time. I will give you the short version of our laws for comparitive purposes:

18 to own a rifle, 21 to own a handgun. This is covered by federal law. "Military style" weapons are hard to define by law without risking the erosion of gun rights (for example one law was proposed that a rifle with detachable magazine could be considered an "assult rifle"). So federal law doesn't touch that sort of thing, unless it is "class 3". Class 3 weapons include fully automatic machine guns and similar. I don't remember about the laws regarding other munitions. I think you can own hand grenades, cannons and the like as class 3 weapons but I"m not sure. Class 3 requires an FBI background check, waiting period, and tax stamp which I think is about $40. Federal law requires that you may not have been convicted of a felony crime, you can't be an illegal alien, you can't have a restraining order against you at the time of purchase, etc etc.

Now states in the USA are still individual units of government. The doctrine of "supremacy", and the Supreme court claiming the ability to review state laws has eroded this soveirgnty. In fact most of the American Civil War was fought over this issue. However, sparing you a boring history lesson, states make their own additional laws regarding firearms. California would probably be among the worst (I've also heard Hawaii is nearly as bad). The western states are mostly pretty easy though. One of the problems that you face is transporting firearms across state lines. In most cases, you are safe if the firearms are broken down, and the ammunition is stored in a seperate compartment within the vehicle. Washington DC (technically not a state) does not allow transport of firearms, although police have stated that they will not harass people who don't stop driving through the city. I don't know about you, but I generally don't stop and talk to cops when driving through the city. :)

It's difficult to remember all the state laws. I think California has bans on Class 3 weapons, 50 caliber BMG, and heavy restrictions on handguns.

Another state issue is the Concealed Carry Permit (often called a CCW). Some states allow individual citizens to carry a weapon concealed. I think only 1 state allows you to carry concealed without a permit. Concealed carry is a little more regulated then firearm ownership. I used to live in Pennsylvania, where acquiring a CCW was on a "shall issue" basis. In other words the burden was on the state to prove you COULDN'T handle cocealed carry. As a result, Pennsylvania only required that you hand in a form signed by 2 non family members declaring that you were mentally competant.

I now live in Arizona. Until recently, it was illgeal to carry concealed (carrying a firearm in plain view was acceptable though). About 4 years ago I think, Arizona began offering a CCW program. It requires 2 8 hour courses on safety and self defense. At the end of the program, you are expected to shoot a target at 7 and 10 yards. If you do not hit the target 10 out of 100 shots, you have to take the course over again. The course is free, but you must provide your own firearm and ammo.

In most states, open carry is technically legal. I say technically because county and town governments have often banned open carry as an option by considering it "brandishment of a weapon". However, on the state level it is technically legal, and not uncommon in more rural areas.

In Arizona open carry is still very common. In most parts of the USA still, firearms are more then just a hobby; they represent a tool to the rancher.

Again, I don't want to sound superior, but most Europeans can't even begin to grasp the sheer size of the US. There are some that would criticize our lifestyle, our cars, our guns, etc. Well that's nice when you're living in London where you can take a subway 5 miles to work and back. Where the entire country is 50 miles accross. Hell most states are bigger then that. I drove from Pennsylvania to Arizona many times last summer. IT is 2400 miles each way. I live in a small town. It is 60 miles to the nearest large city.

Another thing; I don't live in a town per say. I live in an "unincorperated area". That means that even though I live about 5 miles from a town, I don't get served by their police force. Instead, I rely on the county to provide police protection at my house. This is good, but the average police call to my area is 42 minutes. I'm stuck here in the middle of nowhere, and I have to kill a rattle snake. Someone breaks into my house. What do I do, call the cops? 42 minutes later they're loading me into a Hurst, not defending me from what harm there may be.

In America, we drive big cars because we drive big distances. Do you expect a company is going to shell out hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars to build a train system? No company in their right mind would do that. Maintainence on a light rail system would drive them out of business. You couldn't charge enough of a fare to make it pay. And even if you do, it would probably still be cheaper to drive the damn car.

/rant/off

Anyway, very interesting. I too can't stand people telling me how I ought to live my life.

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Unread postby CDG » Sat Apr 29, 2006 7:44 pm

nekonoko wrote:
Glock wrote:As for the 'no-politics' rule, I find it a hazy rule. This is the 'everything Else' thread, no?


No politics means just that. Period. If you don't like the rules here, then please post someplace else. This is an SGI enthusiast forum that just happens to have a catch all forum for occasional off topic posts (every forum is bound to have a few). Political discussion just leads to bickering and resentment and I don't need that crap on here.


I would add to this that the definition of censorship would not imply a private organization like an internet forum. I could throw you out of my house for saying something dirty about my wife, but that doesn't become censorship until the government prosecutes you for the same remarks...

However, there is a certain ambiguous nature to a no politics rule. Ultimately, it comes to the decision of a moderator or administrator to decide on how to fairly enforce rules. Ultimately, in my opinion, that is what makes a forum a great place to post, or one of those dives where the mods support one view over another. I think we have good mods here on this forum that keep things well in hand.

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Unread postby kshuff » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:42 pm

CDG wrote:I think you can own hand grenades, cannons and the like as class 3 weapons but I"m not sure.


No way! Not even with a class 3 license

CDG wrote:Class 3 requires an FBI background check, waiting period, and tax stamp which I think is about $40. Federal law requires that you may not have been convicted of a felony crime, you can't be an illegal alien, you can't have a restraining order against you at the time of purchase, etc etc.


$200 when I got mine, about 15 years ago. Don't know what it is currently

CDG wrote:It's difficult to remember all the state laws. I think California has bans on Class 3 weapons, 50 caliber BMG, and heavy restrictions on handguns.


New Jersey also

CDG wrote: I used to live in Pennsylvania, where acquiring a CCW was on a "shall issue" basis. In other words the burden was on the state to prove you COULDN'T handle cocealed carry. As a result, Pennsylvania only required that you hand in a form signed by 2 non family members declaring that you were mentally competant.


Not true. I live In Pennsylvania and have a concealed weapons permit. Its a matter of going to the sheriffs office, obtaining the form, answering the questions, police background check, getting a physical, and paying the fee.

CDG wrote:I too can't stand people telling me how I ought to live my life.


I agree totally. The morons making the rules have no clue whatsoever.
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Unread postby CDG » Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:20 pm

Thanks for clearing things up a bit. I'm a little hazy on class3 regulations since I don't personally own anyone (and neither does anyone in my immediate family).

I was pretty young at the time, but I thought for sure my Dad had to get 2 people to sign a form about his mental competancy. Anyway it's extremely easy to get a CCW in PA, so I'm not into arguing about the nitty gritty. :) PA was a decent enough state for gun laws. I recall something about switch blades as well. It was a legal gray area if I recall. Someone said if you had a CCW you could own and carry one, but I tend to doubt that claim.

You are from PA I noticed. Ever shoot at Targetmaster? That's where I spent most of my time shooting. My dad, brother, and I would shoot there almost every Sunday. The other place we shot a lot was at Classic Pistol, which all I remember is it was on the way to the Washington Expo center from my house.

New Jersey is also a pretty bad state, I agree.

Oh, the other thing I forgot to mention is reciprical state agreements. Some states have agreements with other states to honor each other's CCWs. I think Arizona and Nevada had or have an agreement like this. However, holding a CCW in Arizona doesn't mean you can carry concealed in California. To compound matters, some states require a permenant residence in order to acquire a CCW, so holding dual CCWs can sometimes be difficult.

Still another complicating factor is Indian lands. When you're on Tribal lands, you might as well go to a foreign country in some respects. Tribal lands have much more individual governmental control over their territories. Some tribes honor CCWs, others don't, still others have not commented on the issue.

I know this because I own a southwestern gift store, so when you go to buy jewelry on the Indian reservations, it's good to know this stuff. Some people can get really tangled up in Tribal law...

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Unread postby hamei » Sun Apr 30, 2006 1:19 am

kshuff wrote:
CDG wrote:I too can't stand people telling me how I ought to live my life.


I agree totally. The morons making the rules have no clue whatsoever.

Maybe. But that part about needing to hit the target 10 out of 100 times doesn't make me feel real secure. I sure hope that if someone near me decides to use his concealed weapon that he was in the top 5% of his class !

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Unread postby Hakimoto » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:24 am

Just to comment on the 'no-politics' rule: It applies here as well, feel free to discuss gun laws, but the moment someone thinks they have to make a polemic political comment (<--- there's your def of what's ok and what's not... :) ) or derogatory comment toward another forum member, it's good-bye thready...
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Unread postby kshuff » Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:00 am

hamei wrote:Maybe. But that part about needing to hit the target 10 out of 100 times doesn't make me feel real secure. I sure hope that if someone near me decides to use his concealed weapon that he was in the top 5% of his class !


<===== And this is the point I reach 1000


Well, I used to shoot competition, so I think I'm pretty adept at hitting the target. :wink:
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Unread postby CDG » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:57 am

Freedom and responsibility are two forces that play off of each other constantly in many things you do. Of course nothing can fully compare to the freedom, or responsibility of owning a firearm, however there are many places where the government has set regulations that don't necesarily serve to do anything but raise a tax, or provide a "more apparent then real" sense of security.

Most drivers on the road pretty much stink. Many people operate ladders in an unsafe fashion. I've seen a lot of motorcyclists that don't know how to ride. Many people don't exhibit proper safety procedure around a swimming pool.

So it is difficult to make the call where and when to set standards for a given activity. Due to this difficulty, I would rather the government just not set standards period where at all possible.

I mean where do you draw the line for a CCW class? The problem with getting into debates for where to set standards for marksmanship are those who would deliberately make a darned near impossible standard to achieve, in effect banning concealed carry. How much training do you need to responsibly use a firearm if you are ever required to in a defensive situation? I pose this as a genuine question, not as a smartass retort to anyone, or specifically hamei. I may be the exception who practices as often as I have time (although lately it's been kind of hard to go shooting as much). It's a tough line to draw. Ultimately I would be in favor of bringing back school marksmanship programs where possible. Educate young people on the proper and safe handling of firearms from 8th grade on up. Basic proficiency with a firearm can be an important survival skill.

This brings up another question though: Does the good a firearm can do in a defensive situation outweigh the bad? It's really a matter of opinion. Statistics on the issue can be twisted and made to lie on both sides of the aisle. The science of stats is comming up with an excuse to remove "outliers" that hurt the desired meaning in the numbers. I would prefer to trust myself in a defensive situation, then anyone else. That includes police. I have a lot of respect for most law enforcement, and the tough job that they do (for a crummy salery). However, in many cases they are only minimally trained, and perhaps only somewhat better then the average citizen would prove to be in a defensive situation. It is unfortunate that innocent people die as a result of a well meaning bullet.

Keep in perspective though that "innocent people" are mowed down in droves every day by automobile accidents. It is nearly impossible to live in a safe world. Every time we get a little freedom, we sacrifice a little safety, on one level or another.

I'm sure it's difficult to take such a philisophical view of things when you're the one lying in a hospital bed, paralyzed by a stray bullet.

So yeah, by that rambling on, I hope that I have at least sufficiently demonstrated that I understand the gravity of my position on the issue. I think it is important to keep an open mind to other arguments, and even more important to feel compasion toward your fellow man. Things that you may brush off easily may not be so easy to flick away in a different situation.

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Unread postby CDG » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:59 am

Hakimoto wrote:Just to comment on the 'no-politics' rule: It applies here as well, feel free to discuss gun laws, but the moment someone thinks they have to make a polemic political comment (<--- there's your def of what's ok and what's not... :) ) or derogatory comment toward another forum member, it's good-bye thready...


Haki- that's about what I figured in the context of "no politics". If this topic were to tumble into anything personal or ugly, I would want it loced anyway. :)


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