I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

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yarrumevets
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I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby yarrumevets » Mon Dec 26, 2005 1:05 am

I've noticed over the past many months that there's a certain amount of anti GNU/Linux sentiment amoungst some of our membership - without getting too emotional about such matters (I know that this is often difficult) I was wondering what the main concerns people have with it. Primarily are some of us pissed off with GNU/Linux for technical or social or political or other (or all?) reasons?
Generally speaking I think that technically it has some flaws, but they're there for the fixing and I'm really appreciative of the opportunity to have an industrial-strength unix variant available (at source level) without being reduced to something like Nachos or PC-Xinu etc. when I'm getting my students to study an OS.
Maybe I'm missing something, if so I'd be happy to be enlightened ...

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Unread postby Hakimoto » Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:13 am

yarrumevets,

thanks for your comments and whilst they are surely meant to ease a bit the occasional break-out of OS flaming, I'm moving this to Everything Else for now. I feel it's better to conduct this discussion there. It's supposed to be the more off-topic subforum we have, so please use it as such. :)

everyone,

I'm not opposed to a civilised discussion of this, but the moment someone posts out of line or there are personal flames between members, I will lock this and any future threads that discuss this kind of thing. This has gone out of hand too many times in the past, so please follow ye's example and make objective comments, where possible. Above all, stay friendly. This thread is on a very short leash. ;-)

Thanks for your understanding.
The Bandito wrote:In a few years, no doubt, you'll be able to buy a computer,
software and operating system that will match the capabilities
of your current Amiga at about the price you paid for the
Amiga way back when. But you can smile to yourself, knowing
that you were touching the future years before the rest of
the world. And that other computers and operating systems
will do with brute force what the Amiga did years before with
grace, elegance and style.


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Alver
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Re: I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby Alver » Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:32 am

yarrumevets wrote:I've noticed over the past many months that there's a certain amount of anti GNU/Linux sentiment amoungst some of our membership (...)


Yup, noticed that too. I'm not sure what people hate about it... either they want irix, being the diehard unix, or MacOSX, which is a nice gui that leaves little to no option for choice at all... Something that is in between seems to be unacceptable :)

Personally, I find things I like in every OS. I like linux for its tweakability, irix for its kinkiness, OSX for the slick desktop, OS/2 for its performance on crap hardware, ... hell, I even like windows when it comes to gaming :P though that's really the only thing I could possibly like it for.
while (!asleep()) sheep++;

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Unread postby foetz » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:41 am

well i think this is not too hard to understand.
over the last few years linux was kinda pressed into the professional market without being able to keep up with proprietary stuff. that made some people (including me) dislike it.
my experience within this time confirmed that standard linux (not the custom packages as sgi or discreet deliver) was not able to be and stay at the same level as prop. unices. moreover running mostly on 'normal' x86 hardware there was/is quite a gap.

however, exactly due to the fact that linux/x86 was not as reliable etc. as the 'real' systems i earned a nice amount of money during over 2 years working as a support and admin guy :D

personally i'm still one of these diehard unix guys alver mentioned but i'm not against linux in general. but it still has to prove itself and i don't mean small dual-cpu webservers running lamp.

generally opensource has its pros and cons and it depends on many things how the final decision of a customer will be.

also keep in mind that linux as well as windows were never conceptualized for professional use. meanwhile they're used that way of course (linux much more than nt) but the initial motives were different.

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Unread postby Thaidog » Mon Dec 26, 2005 11:35 am

I find the "communistic" idea of such software most frightening... mainly bc I live in the US and I'm a Republican. I guess my affinity for GPL'd software somehow make me more right-winged then Genghis khan somehow, but quite frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn.

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Bluefan
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Unread postby Bluefan » Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:17 pm

I like kind of everything, irix seems a very reliable one, linux have the advantage of more programs and a bit easier, but windows?
Windows has the advantage of all the hardware support (not fair :( ), it's widespread and common, but it just sucks.
I need it for gaming, but I always seem to screw my windows installation. It keeps being instable, frequently crashing and gets slower after a long period of use.

It are just the apps and games that keep me on windows. I like linux, but haven't got the harddiskspace on my one x86 pc.
So for the rest (4 sgi's) irix rocks. If I can find the right programs, get them to work, and one cpu upgrade, I'll use irix a lot more.

I already use them for my stop-motion animation film, just because the o2 cam is the only decent one I have, and it just works very easy.

So I just haven't got anything against any OS, except that I just have some very bad expiriences with windows.

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Unread postby foetz » Mon Dec 26, 2005 12:45 pm

Bluefan wrote:I like kind of everything, irix seems a very reliable one, linux have the advantage of more programs


more apps?
what apps? freeware? commercial?
until now nearly all version of serious, commercial apps for linux were a joke. at least linux x86.
so it's just freeware and don't we have a nice archive here?

and a bit easier


easier? why?

, but windows?
Windows has the advantage of all the hardware support


off the shelf hardware support, yes, but that's it.
and how many different hardware do you own? 34 diff. harddisks, 12 diff. mainboards ... ?
the point is qantity is not progress, it's just more of the same.
who wouldn't prefer 3 great items instead of 30 average ones?

(not fair :( ), it's widespread and common, but it just sucks.


:D :D

I need it for gaming, but I always seem to screw my windows installation. It keeps being instable, frequently crashing and gets slower after a long period of use.


can absolutely second that.

It are just the apps and games that keep me on windows. I like linux, but haven't got the harddiskspace on my one x86 pc.
So for the rest (4 sgi's) irix rocks. If I can find the right programs, get them to work, and one cpu upgrade, I'll use irix a lot more.

I already use them for my stop-motion animation film, just because the o2 cam is the only decent one I have, and it just works very easy.

So I just haven't got anything against any OS, except that I just have some very bad expiriences with windows.


well i think many people (sorry for making your post an example bluefan :D) compare sgis and irix on a homeuser usage level. sadly that's useless cause irix and the sgi machines have never been made for that.

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Re: I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby GeneratriX » Mon Dec 26, 2005 2:50 pm

yarrumevets wrote:I've noticed over the past many months that there's a certain amount of anti GNU/Linux sentiment amoungst some of our membership - without getting too emotional about such matters (I know that this is often difficult) I was wondering what the main concerns people have with it. Primarily are some of us pissed off with GNU/Linux for technical or social or political or other (or all?) reasons?


Well, in my own case, I have made the peaces with Linux long time ago.

Of course, I'm also used to launch big flames against Linux too, but it is some kind of not so serious emotive discharge, by some hard feelings because it was/is the new darling of SGI, that left discontinued our beloved MIPS/IRIX combo.

If I have to talk seriously, I even missing A LOT of things from IRIX each time I have to use Linux, but they are mainly things on the desktop functionality, desktop integration with the hardware, and the more difficult to replace without pain: the invencible combo formed by 'swpkg' / 'swmgr' / MIPSpro / ProDev / WorkShop / etc...

But I have to say that I've never used the SGI's custom Linux up to the date.

Honestly, I don't hate Linux. But I hate the commodity PeeCee hardware. Each time I have to put a penny (or as we say in Argentine: "Un Centavo") on PeeCee related hardware I have a deep feel in my stomach that grows and feels like vomit... :oops: :twisted: :lol:

Each penny that I put on MIPS related hardware feels as if I were and old heavily bearded men adding a new brick to the Salomon's Temple; but I know it is another step on my wisdom path! ;)

I have not prejudices against the new SGI's hardware line, and if they have transformed their own Linux flavour on a thing equal/more perfect than IRIX, and their new hardware is really fast and reliable... then, I'll be in problems... because at some point I'll have to get one of thoses! ;)

...Also, I've noticed that someone else mentioned MS Windows in this thread. My definition for such abomination created by the human race is:

"...A big and pretentious telescope, with a big nail at middle of the eyepiece lens (where you'll have to put your eye), pointing to a fake landscape of cartoon stars; all and everything designed by a great staff of blind people guided by Mr. Evil Asshole Buffoon..."
:twisted:

...ehhrrrhhh... Peace On The Earth!; And Happy New Year! ;) :lol:

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Re: I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby foetz » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:09 pm

GeneratriX wrote:I hate the commodity PeeCee hardware. Each time I have to put a penny (or as we say in Argentine: "Un Centavo") on PeeCee related hardware I have a deep feel in my stomach that grows and feels like vomit... :oops: :twisted: :lol:

Each penny that I put on MIPS related hardware feels as if I were and old heavily bearded men adding a new brick to the Salomon's Temple; but I know it is another step on my wisdom path! ;)


:lol: :lol: :lol:
yeah :!: :!:
that's the jackpot, like directly outta my heart :D :D

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GeneratriX
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Re: I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby GeneratriX » Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:29 pm

foetz wrote:
GeneratriX wrote:I hate the commodity PeeCee hardware. Each time I have to put a penny (or as we say in Argentine: "Un Centavo") on PeeCee related hardware I have a deep feel in my stomach that grows and feels like vomit... :oops: :twisted: :lol:

Each penny that I put on MIPS related hardware feels as if I were and old heavily bearded men adding a new brick to the Salomon's Temple; but I know it is another step on my wisdom path! ;)


:lol: :lol: :lol:
yeah :!: :!:
that's the jackpot, like directly outta my heart :D :D


...Hehehe!!! ...I guess I was so inspired to write my post because a couple nights ago I was forced to upgrade one of my two disgusting intranet peecee-servers! :lol:

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Re: I don't want to start a flame-war, but ....

Unread postby hamei » Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:06 pm

yarrumevets wrote:I've noticed over the past many months that there's a certain amount of anti GNU/Linux sentiment amoungst some of our membership - without getting too emotional about such matters (I know that this is often difficult) I was wondering what the main concerns people have with it.

Yeah, that damned socialist stuff is gonna pollute the minds of our kids. We got trouble right here in River City !

Okay, except for being part of the vast Commy conspiracy and an entryway into our water supplies, Linux is okay for those who like it.

Some things which are not so okay are : The manner in which SGI has decided to shit upon its customers with regards to Irix. Another is the way that so many zealots are trying to jam Linux down everyone else's throat. It gets really tiresome. Open Source is great except when it is NOT open-source platform-neutral but just another free-download version of the same tired old Windows schtick. Themz ! Transparent terminals ! Cute backgrounds ! *.doc files ! Oh, you're not using gcc ? then of course it won't compile ! (If the little jerks are even aware that there is anything outside of gnu.) "Why can't I run Linux on my Octane ? It's so much easier to use than Irix .... " etc etc ad infinitem. If that's the future of Linux then it is worthless, except as a vehicle forIBM et al to make more money without even the necessity to provide a decent operating system.

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Unread postby kshuff » Mon Dec 26, 2005 5:23 pm

Cosmos, where are you??? Kidding aside, I'm not going to say anything other than I dislike linux heavily. Opensource is great if its done right and professionally, not the hap-hazard way linux is put together. Take a look at:

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html
-ks

:Onyx: :Onyx: :Crimson: :O2000: :Onyx2: :Fuel: :Octane: :Octane2: :PI: :Indigo: :Indigo: :O2: :O2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2: :Indigo2IMP: :Indy: :320: :540: :O3x0: :1600SW: :1600SW: :hpserv:

See them all >here<

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choza
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Unread postby choza » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:05 pm

in my case i dont hate linux, just prefer to stay away of it, let me explain you why...
when i was about 14 my father bought me a copy of Suse, well tryed that, pretty easy installation, but no net (winmodem :) )
then forgot about it for a time...
again tryed to play linux a few years after that, (i even bought an external modem to have the net) but, when installing soft, i ended in long journeys trying to install missing libs and link stuff here and there, to have an app of mid usability... quit linux again
after some years again, linux tempted once again... now with those first nvidia dirvers, i said, hey why not opengl?... well that was my last serious effort on linux, followed each procedure of nvidia installing those drivers for the geforce 2mx... and drove me nuts, broke the sys, (almost exploded :) )
and well, no more linux for me since then...

now... i tryed IRIX, i install everyth¡ng i need and if a link is missing, it is only one (thanks to all the developers here of course, thank you guys!! )
no big problems ever! stable and friendly... thats why me (and many others i guess) would prefer IRIX

you show me that on linux, and will have one for sure (already have one, but doesnt count too much)
maybe i need to learn the linux way, but, its a hard one :D

PISENLO!!! (peace and love)

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Unread postby Alver » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:12 pm


I wouldn't consider Theo the right man to speak... his own OpenBSD isn't even capable of detecting an el cheapo sixteen-in-a-dozen 3com pcmcia nic :P

foetz wrote:over the last few years linux was kinda pressed into the professional market without being able to keep up with proprietary stuff. that made some people (including me) dislike it.
my experience within this time confirmed that standard linux (not the custom packages as sgi or discreet deliver) was not able to be and stay at the same level as prop. unices. moreover running mostly on 'normal' x86 hardware there was/is quite a gap.

Open source is great for non-critical stuff - it won't ever replace big iron proprietary unixes like solaris, aix or even irix, regardless of whether or not SGI is trying to push that... it was developed by hobbyists, and it kinda shows still :D the hobbyist's desktop and home server is the niche it still fits in best, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

But apart from all that: it really doesn't deserve the flamefest it gets so often over here. It doesn't cost anything, and it's (by far) the best solution to run on cheap peecee hardware - with an exception perhaps for FreeBSD. The ports to non-x86 shouldn't be taken all that seriously most of the time... the ppc port is decent, but no match for OSX in lightyears; the embedded ARM and MIPS ports are very good, but ehhh, sparc? alpha? ... SGI MIPS? I wouldn't call those more than "Look mom, it runs linux!" ports :P

And give the guys some credit, for christ's sake ;) after all we have nice ports of tons of open source apps for irix, and where would those be if linux hadn't been around? Would they even exist? The people that speak such foul language about GPL and opensource should be forced to work on a default irix installation... one week of using netscape 4.x should be enough to break their spirit - it sure would for me :lol:

GeneratriX wrote: Honestly, I don't hate Linux. But I hate the commodity PeeCee hardware. Each time I have to put a penny (or as we say in Argentine: "Un Centavo") on PeeCee related hardware I have a deep feel in my stomach that grows and feels like vomit...

That's the best description of the feeling I ever saw, and damn right too :lol: that's the reason why I got my first sgi... then my first ppc... then my second sgi... etcetera etcetera ;)
while (!asleep()) sheep++;

yarrumevets
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Unread postby yarrumevets » Mon Dec 26, 2005 9:25 pm

Very nicely put, one and all - it's very refreshing to touch controversial topics in a forum where friendly and informed discourse comes first :D

I guess I've learned something from this, in that being an inhabitant of an "Ivory Tower" I've been ingorant of the upset that Linux has created by entrepreneurial types attempting to thrust it into a commercial arena - something for which it largely seems unsuited. I've been lucky, I've never had to concern myself with Linux's shortcomings in that area - instead, I've got the luxury of saying to my students "Here's the source code to a virtual memory manager or a journalling filesystem (or a whatever) - now, take it apart and put it back together". It's just the sort of thing that engineering students need to have access to. I guess I could do it with FreeBSD/OpenBSD/NetBSD too (but having fiddled with Linux since the 0.99 kernel days I'd have to rewrite heaps of my documentation to change horses). One thing is for sure though, I can't do this with commercial offerings or toy operating systems - and my students know it too - it would be a waste of an educational opportunity to ask them to study Nachos, PC-Xinu, uCos etc. when Linux is there. MINIX is a different story though and might turn out to be a better option later in 2006 when several planned enhancements are completed. I guess I've been looking at Linux from a really narrow viewpoint and it's been good to have been given a bigger picture :D

Thanks again everyone for demonstrating the best example of an online community discussion board. Best wishes for the New Year!


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