Fear of Artificial Intelligence

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commodorejohn
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby commodorejohn » Thu Sep 10, 2015 12:40 pm

I'm not worried about artificial intelligence (which I've yet to see any reason to suspect that we'll ever manage to create) nearly as much as I'm worried about artificial "intelligence" (which there's already way too much of) and the natural idiots who want to put it in charge of every goddamn thing these days.
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Thu Sep 10, 2015 6:08 pm

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin ?
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby robespierre » Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:54 pm

I expected you to mention Cherry 2000!
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Fri Sep 11, 2015 1:53 am

robespierre wrote:I expected you to mention Cherry 2000!

Stepford Wives or The Silver Metal Lover ?

What's it gonna be, boy ? YES or NO ? I gotta know right now !
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Fri Sep 11, 2015 4:52 am

ivelegacy wrote:so I expected you to mention a 2001 American science fiction film directed by Steven Spielberg and based on a project made by Stanley Kubrick: "A.I. Artificial Intelligence"

The Velveteen Rabbit with hardware instead of a soul ...
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby robespierre » Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:46 am

I wasn't impressed by Penrose's reasoning, and his books don't seem to me to have much in the way of structure or exposition.
All physical phenomena below a certain size are influenced by quantum effects, but there's no reason to think that (e.g.) brains are any more than semiconductors. In fact, all real work on neurobiology assumes a classical model.
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby wenp » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:40 pm

Roger Penrose's theory of the mind gets a lot of attention among computer types, but specialists in the topics he addresses have dismissed his work.

He completely misunderstands the range of application of Goedel's incompleteness theorems[1]. He posits quantum effects on processes that operate at a scale where quantum properties have no significant effect[2].

I seem to recall there were also criticisms of his understanding of biology, but I don't have any references for that.

[1] Torkel Franzen. 2005. Goedel's Theorem: An Incomplete Guide to its Use and Abuse.
[2] Alwyn Scott. 1995. Stairway to the Mind: The Controversial New Science of Consciousness.

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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby uunix » Fri Sep 11, 2015 3:50 pm

Logans un
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:00 pm

uunix wrote:Logans Run

Nice costumes :D

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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby sgifanatic » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:14 pm

Fears about AI fall into two big buckets:

1) AI will kill us
2) AI will take our jobs

There is a third, somewhat subconscious fear, i.e. if machines out think us, we will no longer be "special".

Re the first one, there is enough autonomy coming to weapons where a very small number of people might be able to deploy and propel a large force of powerful autonomous weapons systems to create havoc at an unprecedented scale. Whether or not the initial intent is supplied by a goal setting AI or a human, at some level, becomes immaterial. Robots as warfighters are going to be a reality. CIWS cannons, autonomous drones, fire and forget missiles and unmanned ground vehicles are just a few examples of weapon systems that make decisions on their own. And the thing about not firing without human approval is a bit of a myth... they are instructed to take on a range of targets, but AI-powered systems do individual target selection and firing on their own today.

Re the second, yes, AI-based systems are taking our jobs and will continue to. Whether its autonomous cars decimating the number one source of employment for US men (truck drivers) or reasonably advanced "agents" that may not entirely obliterate, but will certainly greatly reduce, employment in the number one job category for women in the US (assistants). Other than these, mass providers of employment, such as manufacturing, agriculture etc. are clearly going to be robo-sourced. Yes, not every job will be done by robots/AI in the near future, but this doesn't matter. Enough will be done so that some pretty fundamental socio-economic assumptions will have to be re-examined.

Re the third, everyone is special in their own way :-)

AI is here and its footprint will continue to grow. Whether robots are "sentient" or have "consciousness" are almost peripheral questions when considering the impact of AI with regards to all three of the fears cited above.
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:41 pm

sgifanatic wrote:AI is here

Well, not really. That's not intelligence. That's "following instructions". You can set up a row of dominoes, then push the first one so they all fall down in a row. Is that "intelligence" ?

The theory of relativity and the sistine chapel were not 'following instructions'. That's intelligence.

and its footprint will continue to grow.

Not for too much longer. When there's no food in another fifty years, artificial intelligence will be the least of the race's worries.

Did you know trhat fighting fires was about 15% of the Forest Service budget in the 70's but now it's almost 50% ? This is just one example of an obvious hazard. There are so many things that will happen that we aren't even considering ... humans may survivie what they hath wrought (looking at the candidates for political office tho, there's much doubt in my mind) but even if they do, it ain't gonna be anything like what we have now.

And getting there, wherever there is, will be extremely ugly.

Whether robots are "sentient" or have "consciousness" are almost peripheral questions when considering the impact of AI with regards to all three of the fears cited above.

Dancing on the head of a pin again. The question itself is irrelevant.
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby commodorejohn » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:32 pm

hamei wrote:Well, not really. That's not intelligence. That's "following instructions". You can set up a row of dominoes, then push the first one so they all fall down in a row. Is that "intelligence" ?

But, but, but hamei, it's The Future now! Or if it isn't, we can make it be The Future by just insisting hard enough! What are you, some kind of filthy Luddite, that you don't believe in The Future!?
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby sgifanatic » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:44 am

hamei wrote:
sgifanatic wrote:AI is here

Well, not really. That's not intelligence. That's "following instructions". You can set up a row of dominoes, then push the first one so they all fall down in a row. Is that "intelligence" ?


The question you are asking above appears to be rhetorical. I don't know if you are familiar with layer at a time learning, for example, but when exposed to images the system begins to learn and abstract the same kinds of basic features humans would, without being told to do so, or given any knowledge of what a line is or an edge is. There is no first-order "if-then-else" involved. AI systems today are performing their own feature selection, feature evolution and so on. The abstractions they learn - and the rules they evolve - are not provided by a human. In most cases, humans are unaware of them.

The theory of relativity and the sistine chapel were not 'following instructions'. That's intelligence.


Chess was the ultimate exemplar of human intelligence until Deep Blue.

Computers have invented important things like super efficient 3D junctions, without being explicitly told how to do this. These results were achieved by programs that could "re-write" their own rules and discover new rules not considered by their human creators... "advancing knowledge". The 3D junction I alluded to is just one example of an unanticipated discovery made by AI software that did not result only from following explicit instructions provided by a human. There are many other such examples.

Very early on, AI software was already capable of chancing upon important theorems and mathematical discoveries. For example, an AI program re-discovered Goldbach's conjecture. And within the domain of mathematics, automated theorem provers have been providing increasingly more impressive results. Their discoveries will become better known in time. A likely outcome within the next century is that much of the new mathematics being discovered, will in fact be machine discovered. This doesn't require machine sentience, by the way. Just faster computers and the same types of GA/GP techniques that have proven themselves over and over in this category.

It's interesting that you used the theory of relativity as an example of human intelligence. Particularly in physics, many human discoveries have been attributed to symbolic manipulation; i.e. not "seeing the truth" in some structural sense, but arriving at it by following a mathematical chain, constrained by the pre-defined rules of mathematical operations. When human mathematical symbolic manipulation leads to a new "truth" it is accepted universally as evidence of intelligence.

Whether robots are "sentient" or have "consciousness" are almost peripheral questions when considering the impact of AI with regards to all three of the fears cited above.

Dancing on the head of a pin again. The question itself is irrelevant.


I agree. As I said, both these questions are peripheral when considering the impact of AI. AI is having a massive impact already and the debate over whether software can be sentient is thus becoming less interesting.

Not for too much longer. When there's no food in another fifty years,


I'll start stocking up!
Last edited by sgifanatic on Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:50 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby sgifanatic » Sun Sep 13, 2015 5:46 am

commodorejohn wrote:But, but, but hamei, it's The Future now! Or if it isn't, we can make it be The Future by just insisting hard enough! What are you, some kind of filthy Luddite, that you don't believe in The Future!?


I can only speak for myself. And while I am sure some folks may limit their interest in this space to rhetorical insistence, I do, in fact, do a little more than that :-)
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Re: Fear of Artificial Intelligence

Unread postby hamei » Sun Sep 13, 2015 6:07 am

sgifanatic wrote:Chess was the ultimate exemplar of human intelligence until Deep Blue.

Where did you get this idea ? Chess is problem-solving but it's not intelligence. Never has been.

Unless you are a believer in today's "get a good score on the test" version of education ... China has gone nowhere for 2,000 years because of this. The US is fast following in their footsteps. Intelligence != problem-solving.

Genghis Khan was intelligent. Thomas Paine and Benjamin Franklin were intelligent. Lao zi and Chairman Mao were intelligent. Bobby Fisher was an autistic freak who could do only one thing well and the one thing he did is essentially useless.

This stuff you refer to as "intelligence" is merely "being really good at solving predetermined puzzles."

It ain't the same.

It's interesting that you used the theory of relativity as an example of human intelligence. Particularly in physics, many human discoveries have been attributed to symbolic manipulation;

You miss the point. The intelligent part was not calculating the math. The intelligent part was wondering why the universe is made the way it is.

Any nc machine on the planet (even tube-driven Rooski ones) can make more accurate parts than an Italian but not a single one can conceive of an Alfa 8C or create the curves of a 275 GTB. Even humans using computer intelligence cannot. Look at a new car. They are perfect. Perfectly dead and lifeless.

Sorry. Stepford wives ain't never gonna cut the mustard.
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